When were female captains banned from Starfleet?Were there military personnel / branches of service in Federation aside from StarFleet?When/How would Star Trek captains update their log?What were all the occasions where the Star Trek Captains have met each other?Why didn't they apply force on the primitive civilization which used to make Starfleet officers gladiators?Are there any non-human captains (and up) in Starfleet?When did 'Star Fleet' become 'Starfleet'?Why are all Starfleet ships commanded by Captains?From which material are Starfleet ship dedication plaques made?Why don't Starfleet captains force other Starfleet ships to lower their shields every time they fight?Why do the captains rely so much on log information when it can be unreliable?

Is it ethical to recieve stipend after publishing enough papers?

Secondhand weed smoke smell on luggage when traveling to Japan. Will it be a problem?

What are some good ways to treat frozen vegetables such that they behave like fresh vegetables when stir frying them?

Why the "ls" command is showing the permissions of files in a FAT32 partition?

Quoting Keynes in a lecture

Is there a RAID 0 Equivalent for RAM?

What's the name of the logical fallacy where a debater extends a statement far beyond the original statement to make it true?

How to get directions in deep space?

I found an audio circuit and I built it just fine, but I find it a bit too quiet. How do I amplify the output so that it is a bit louder?

Remove specific words in a string

How can ping know if my host is down

Why is so much work done on numerical verification of the Riemann Hypothesis?

Can you use Vicious Mockery to win an argument or gain favours?

What is going on with gets(stdin) on the site coderbyte?

Set in dynamic query value of variable declared outside dynamic query

What does Apple's new App Store requirement mean

How do I Interface a PS/2 Keyboard without Modern Techniques?

Make a Bowl of Alphabet Soup

How could a planet have erratic days?

Confusion matrix logic

What to do when eye contact makes your coworker uncomfortable?

Why is the Sun approximated as a black body at ~ 5800 K?

Multiplicative persistence

Is there any evidence that Cleopatra and Caesarion considered fleeing to India to escape the Romans?



When were female captains banned from Starfleet?


Were there military personnel / branches of service in Federation aside from StarFleet?When/How would Star Trek captains update their log?What were all the occasions where the Star Trek Captains have met each other?Why didn't they apply force on the primitive civilization which used to make Starfleet officers gladiators?Are there any non-human captains (and up) in Starfleet?When did 'Star Fleet' become 'Starfleet'?Why are all Starfleet ships commanded by Captains?From which material are Starfleet ship dedication plaques made?Why don't Starfleet captains force other Starfleet ships to lower their shields every time they fight?Why do the captains rely so much on log information when it can be unreliable?













8















In the TOS episode Turnabout Intruder, a woman who wants to be a Starfleet captain states that




"Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair."




Kirk agrees with her that it seems unfair.



Clearly about a decade earlier there were female starship captains such as Philippa Georgiou. What was this rule and when was it in effect?










share|improve this question




























    8















    In the TOS episode Turnabout Intruder, a woman who wants to be a Starfleet captain states that




    "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair."




    Kirk agrees with her that it seems unfair.



    Clearly about a decade earlier there were female starship captains such as Philippa Georgiou. What was this rule and when was it in effect?










    share|improve this question


























      8












      8








      8


      1






      In the TOS episode Turnabout Intruder, a woman who wants to be a Starfleet captain states that




      "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair."




      Kirk agrees with her that it seems unfair.



      Clearly about a decade earlier there were female starship captains such as Philippa Georgiou. What was this rule and when was it in effect?










      share|improve this question
















      In the TOS episode Turnabout Intruder, a woman who wants to be a Starfleet captain states that




      "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair."




      Kirk agrees with her that it seems unfair.



      Clearly about a decade earlier there were female starship captains such as Philippa Georgiou. What was this rule and when was it in effect?







      star-trek






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 2 hours ago







      user

















      asked 8 hours ago









      useruser

      1,235916




      1,235916




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          17














          There are two interpretations of that scene. The first, and the one generally accepted these days, is that she was off her rocker, and made a statement that stated there was discrimination against her because of what group she belonged to (ie, women), thus explaining her own failings.



          Unfortunately, that wasn't the original meaning. The original intent of that scene was that she was speaking the absolute truth: Starfleet didn't allow women in command.



          This was confirmed by Nimoy and Shatner in a conversation with the authors of Shatner's 1979 biography Where No Man...




          "What is easier for me to deal with on that particular script is the
          knowledge that the writer was making a script in which his goal was to
          prove, quote, 'That women, although they claim equality, cannot really
          do things as well as, under certain circumstances, as a man -- like
          the command function, for example. And it was a rather chauvinistic,
          clumsy handling of an interesting question. What he set out to prove
          was that this lady, given command of the ship, would blow it. That’s
          really what the script was about. Just that simple. You see."



          "Yeah," Bill agrees. “The problems were solved without really --"



          Leonard cuts in, nodding. "That’s, what I was dealing with when we
          were shooting that show -- the knowledge that that was the concept.
          And I rebelled against the concept. I was uncomfortable doing the
          whole show because I didn’t believe in the concept."




          Roddenberry later admitted the line was sexist and said he regretted it. However, it was very much in keeping for him. Roddenberry's original story was even worse.



          At the time he was going through a nasty divorce, and had a low opinion of women in general--and there are many reports of the time of the crap he said, including statements like "...all women are c***s who can't be trusted" (said several times at story meetings). It's reliably reported that, even putting the divorce aside, he was absurdly sexist even for the time.



          You can see the same sort of thing earlier, in the original pilot "The Cage" (later re-used in "The Menagerie") when Christopher Pike makes a statement about being uncomfortable with the idea of a woman on the bridge, which then causes the bit between him and Number One about not considering her as a woman.



          Incidentally, the reason Majel Barrett was dropped from the role, contrary to Roddenberry's later statements, had nothing to do with the studio/network being uncomfortable with a woman being second in command, as he claimed. What they had a problem with wasn't an actress playing the part, they had a problem with an actress then having an affair with Roddenberry playing the part, as they were nervous about the potential backstage drama that could result. But anyway...



          So, long answer short, yes, the line and backstory was intended to be absolutely as sexist as it appears: Lester is justifiably bitter that as competent as she otherwise was, she could never command a starship because Starfleet didn't want women putting cooties all over their captain's seats.



          However, even at the time it was recognized just how offensive that idea was, and it grew even more unacceptable, so by the time the 1980s rolled around and Star Trek IV showed the captain of USS Saratoga was a woman, it was firmly understood the idea was stupid, and everyone proceeded to ignore it. So, gradually, the contorted explanation that no, Janice Lester was just crazy and Good Ol' Gene wasn't a misogynistic ass became the accepted one. Christopher Pike, when he showed up on Discovery, didn't have any sort of issue with women in senior positions (even reporting directly to one), Starfleet had female captains right from the early days, and there was never a ban on women in the Big Chair.






          share|improve this answer























          • Star Trek Continues (now sadly milkshake-ducked) did tackle this issue directly, trying to treat it as canon in order to tell an interesting story. Non-canon fan production of course. Thanks for the interesting and detailed answer.

            – user
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @user Milkshake-ducked?

            – Mason Wheeler
            39 mins ago











          • @MasonWheeler "initially perceived as positive, only to soon after be revealed as deeply flawed" (I had to look it up too)

            – bertieb
            29 mins ago











          • What makes star trek continues "milkshake ducked"?

            – OganM
            10 mins ago











          • I seem to recall there being a female admiral or two in some of the movies (specifically in some of the scenes where they're admonishing and/or demoting Kirk for his recklessness). Since one presumably cannot become an admiral without first being a captain, this would imply that female captains were a thing even at that point...

            – Darrel Hoffman
            3 mins ago


















          1














          I'm not sure we can infer an absolute limit on gender roles based on a single line. Certainly it was not Roddenberry's meaning -




          “Nowhere in my story was the statement made that this woman wasn’t qualified to command because of her gender. She lacked the qualifications on a personal level, and she also happened to be emotionally unstable. In her mind, sure, she was being discriminated against. And that could have been another theme in the story — how we can limit ourselves because of our own belief that we will be discriminated against. It can become a self-profiling prophecy.”



          These Are The Voyages -TOS Season Three by Marc Cushman




          Although Kirk agrees with her we could see his comment as placatory rather than actual "agreement" with her position.




          KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.



          JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.



          KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.



          Chakotya.net







          share|improve this answer























          • This answers the now edited question (or at least I think it does) but more indirectly because it was tailored at the original question. It might be worth you doing a quick edit to bring it inline with the more specific version of the rewritten question.

            – TheLethalCarrot
            5 hours ago






          • 4





            I read that dialogue differently. To me she's saying that the world of starship captains excludes relationships, which a screenwriter in the 60's may have written as "doesn't admit women". This exchange is more like "But my life, my love and my lady / is the sea" and not a discrimination discussion.

            – tbrookside
            4 hours ago











          • @TheLethalCarrot TBH I'm not sure how I could edit the answer. The question was based (to my mind) on a single line that the OP assumed implied gender limits. I'm not sure extending that assumption to other ST era is helpful or useful since, AFACT, it's not true. Roddenberry's comment aside (and some disagreed) evidence of such limits in not evident (from my recollections).

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago












          • I confess, my original thought was alongside of the one from tbrookside (relationship-based) but I found the quote for GR and went from there.

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago






          • 3





            Yeah, it was entirely Roddenberry's intent, and he meant it. It was only later that he backtracked because it eventually got through to him what a complete ass it made it him look like.

            – Keith Morrison
            2 hours ago










          Your Answer








          StackExchange.ready(function()
          var channelOptions =
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "186"
          ;
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
          createEditor();
          );

          else
          createEditor();

          );

          function createEditor()
          StackExchange.prepareEditor(
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader:
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          ,
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          );



          );













          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fscifi.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f207630%2fwhen-were-female-captains-banned-from-starfleet%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes








          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          17














          There are two interpretations of that scene. The first, and the one generally accepted these days, is that she was off her rocker, and made a statement that stated there was discrimination against her because of what group she belonged to (ie, women), thus explaining her own failings.



          Unfortunately, that wasn't the original meaning. The original intent of that scene was that she was speaking the absolute truth: Starfleet didn't allow women in command.



          This was confirmed by Nimoy and Shatner in a conversation with the authors of Shatner's 1979 biography Where No Man...




          "What is easier for me to deal with on that particular script is the
          knowledge that the writer was making a script in which his goal was to
          prove, quote, 'That women, although they claim equality, cannot really
          do things as well as, under certain circumstances, as a man -- like
          the command function, for example. And it was a rather chauvinistic,
          clumsy handling of an interesting question. What he set out to prove
          was that this lady, given command of the ship, would blow it. That’s
          really what the script was about. Just that simple. You see."



          "Yeah," Bill agrees. “The problems were solved without really --"



          Leonard cuts in, nodding. "That’s, what I was dealing with when we
          were shooting that show -- the knowledge that that was the concept.
          And I rebelled against the concept. I was uncomfortable doing the
          whole show because I didn’t believe in the concept."




          Roddenberry later admitted the line was sexist and said he regretted it. However, it was very much in keeping for him. Roddenberry's original story was even worse.



          At the time he was going through a nasty divorce, and had a low opinion of women in general--and there are many reports of the time of the crap he said, including statements like "...all women are c***s who can't be trusted" (said several times at story meetings). It's reliably reported that, even putting the divorce aside, he was absurdly sexist even for the time.



          You can see the same sort of thing earlier, in the original pilot "The Cage" (later re-used in "The Menagerie") when Christopher Pike makes a statement about being uncomfortable with the idea of a woman on the bridge, which then causes the bit between him and Number One about not considering her as a woman.



          Incidentally, the reason Majel Barrett was dropped from the role, contrary to Roddenberry's later statements, had nothing to do with the studio/network being uncomfortable with a woman being second in command, as he claimed. What they had a problem with wasn't an actress playing the part, they had a problem with an actress then having an affair with Roddenberry playing the part, as they were nervous about the potential backstage drama that could result. But anyway...



          So, long answer short, yes, the line and backstory was intended to be absolutely as sexist as it appears: Lester is justifiably bitter that as competent as she otherwise was, she could never command a starship because Starfleet didn't want women putting cooties all over their captain's seats.



          However, even at the time it was recognized just how offensive that idea was, and it grew even more unacceptable, so by the time the 1980s rolled around and Star Trek IV showed the captain of USS Saratoga was a woman, it was firmly understood the idea was stupid, and everyone proceeded to ignore it. So, gradually, the contorted explanation that no, Janice Lester was just crazy and Good Ol' Gene wasn't a misogynistic ass became the accepted one. Christopher Pike, when he showed up on Discovery, didn't have any sort of issue with women in senior positions (even reporting directly to one), Starfleet had female captains right from the early days, and there was never a ban on women in the Big Chair.






          share|improve this answer























          • Star Trek Continues (now sadly milkshake-ducked) did tackle this issue directly, trying to treat it as canon in order to tell an interesting story. Non-canon fan production of course. Thanks for the interesting and detailed answer.

            – user
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @user Milkshake-ducked?

            – Mason Wheeler
            39 mins ago











          • @MasonWheeler "initially perceived as positive, only to soon after be revealed as deeply flawed" (I had to look it up too)

            – bertieb
            29 mins ago











          • What makes star trek continues "milkshake ducked"?

            – OganM
            10 mins ago











          • I seem to recall there being a female admiral or two in some of the movies (specifically in some of the scenes where they're admonishing and/or demoting Kirk for his recklessness). Since one presumably cannot become an admiral without first being a captain, this would imply that female captains were a thing even at that point...

            – Darrel Hoffman
            3 mins ago















          17














          There are two interpretations of that scene. The first, and the one generally accepted these days, is that she was off her rocker, and made a statement that stated there was discrimination against her because of what group she belonged to (ie, women), thus explaining her own failings.



          Unfortunately, that wasn't the original meaning. The original intent of that scene was that she was speaking the absolute truth: Starfleet didn't allow women in command.



          This was confirmed by Nimoy and Shatner in a conversation with the authors of Shatner's 1979 biography Where No Man...




          "What is easier for me to deal with on that particular script is the
          knowledge that the writer was making a script in which his goal was to
          prove, quote, 'That women, although they claim equality, cannot really
          do things as well as, under certain circumstances, as a man -- like
          the command function, for example. And it was a rather chauvinistic,
          clumsy handling of an interesting question. What he set out to prove
          was that this lady, given command of the ship, would blow it. That’s
          really what the script was about. Just that simple. You see."



          "Yeah," Bill agrees. “The problems were solved without really --"



          Leonard cuts in, nodding. "That’s, what I was dealing with when we
          were shooting that show -- the knowledge that that was the concept.
          And I rebelled against the concept. I was uncomfortable doing the
          whole show because I didn’t believe in the concept."




          Roddenberry later admitted the line was sexist and said he regretted it. However, it was very much in keeping for him. Roddenberry's original story was even worse.



          At the time he was going through a nasty divorce, and had a low opinion of women in general--and there are many reports of the time of the crap he said, including statements like "...all women are c***s who can't be trusted" (said several times at story meetings). It's reliably reported that, even putting the divorce aside, he was absurdly sexist even for the time.



          You can see the same sort of thing earlier, in the original pilot "The Cage" (later re-used in "The Menagerie") when Christopher Pike makes a statement about being uncomfortable with the idea of a woman on the bridge, which then causes the bit between him and Number One about not considering her as a woman.



          Incidentally, the reason Majel Barrett was dropped from the role, contrary to Roddenberry's later statements, had nothing to do with the studio/network being uncomfortable with a woman being second in command, as he claimed. What they had a problem with wasn't an actress playing the part, they had a problem with an actress then having an affair with Roddenberry playing the part, as they were nervous about the potential backstage drama that could result. But anyway...



          So, long answer short, yes, the line and backstory was intended to be absolutely as sexist as it appears: Lester is justifiably bitter that as competent as she otherwise was, she could never command a starship because Starfleet didn't want women putting cooties all over their captain's seats.



          However, even at the time it was recognized just how offensive that idea was, and it grew even more unacceptable, so by the time the 1980s rolled around and Star Trek IV showed the captain of USS Saratoga was a woman, it was firmly understood the idea was stupid, and everyone proceeded to ignore it. So, gradually, the contorted explanation that no, Janice Lester was just crazy and Good Ol' Gene wasn't a misogynistic ass became the accepted one. Christopher Pike, when he showed up on Discovery, didn't have any sort of issue with women in senior positions (even reporting directly to one), Starfleet had female captains right from the early days, and there was never a ban on women in the Big Chair.






          share|improve this answer























          • Star Trek Continues (now sadly milkshake-ducked) did tackle this issue directly, trying to treat it as canon in order to tell an interesting story. Non-canon fan production of course. Thanks for the interesting and detailed answer.

            – user
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @user Milkshake-ducked?

            – Mason Wheeler
            39 mins ago











          • @MasonWheeler "initially perceived as positive, only to soon after be revealed as deeply flawed" (I had to look it up too)

            – bertieb
            29 mins ago











          • What makes star trek continues "milkshake ducked"?

            – OganM
            10 mins ago











          • I seem to recall there being a female admiral or two in some of the movies (specifically in some of the scenes where they're admonishing and/or demoting Kirk for his recklessness). Since one presumably cannot become an admiral without first being a captain, this would imply that female captains were a thing even at that point...

            – Darrel Hoffman
            3 mins ago













          17












          17








          17







          There are two interpretations of that scene. The first, and the one generally accepted these days, is that she was off her rocker, and made a statement that stated there was discrimination against her because of what group she belonged to (ie, women), thus explaining her own failings.



          Unfortunately, that wasn't the original meaning. The original intent of that scene was that she was speaking the absolute truth: Starfleet didn't allow women in command.



          This was confirmed by Nimoy and Shatner in a conversation with the authors of Shatner's 1979 biography Where No Man...




          "What is easier for me to deal with on that particular script is the
          knowledge that the writer was making a script in which his goal was to
          prove, quote, 'That women, although they claim equality, cannot really
          do things as well as, under certain circumstances, as a man -- like
          the command function, for example. And it was a rather chauvinistic,
          clumsy handling of an interesting question. What he set out to prove
          was that this lady, given command of the ship, would blow it. That’s
          really what the script was about. Just that simple. You see."



          "Yeah," Bill agrees. “The problems were solved without really --"



          Leonard cuts in, nodding. "That’s, what I was dealing with when we
          were shooting that show -- the knowledge that that was the concept.
          And I rebelled against the concept. I was uncomfortable doing the
          whole show because I didn’t believe in the concept."




          Roddenberry later admitted the line was sexist and said he regretted it. However, it was very much in keeping for him. Roddenberry's original story was even worse.



          At the time he was going through a nasty divorce, and had a low opinion of women in general--and there are many reports of the time of the crap he said, including statements like "...all women are c***s who can't be trusted" (said several times at story meetings). It's reliably reported that, even putting the divorce aside, he was absurdly sexist even for the time.



          You can see the same sort of thing earlier, in the original pilot "The Cage" (later re-used in "The Menagerie") when Christopher Pike makes a statement about being uncomfortable with the idea of a woman on the bridge, which then causes the bit between him and Number One about not considering her as a woman.



          Incidentally, the reason Majel Barrett was dropped from the role, contrary to Roddenberry's later statements, had nothing to do with the studio/network being uncomfortable with a woman being second in command, as he claimed. What they had a problem with wasn't an actress playing the part, they had a problem with an actress then having an affair with Roddenberry playing the part, as they were nervous about the potential backstage drama that could result. But anyway...



          So, long answer short, yes, the line and backstory was intended to be absolutely as sexist as it appears: Lester is justifiably bitter that as competent as she otherwise was, she could never command a starship because Starfleet didn't want women putting cooties all over their captain's seats.



          However, even at the time it was recognized just how offensive that idea was, and it grew even more unacceptable, so by the time the 1980s rolled around and Star Trek IV showed the captain of USS Saratoga was a woman, it was firmly understood the idea was stupid, and everyone proceeded to ignore it. So, gradually, the contorted explanation that no, Janice Lester was just crazy and Good Ol' Gene wasn't a misogynistic ass became the accepted one. Christopher Pike, when he showed up on Discovery, didn't have any sort of issue with women in senior positions (even reporting directly to one), Starfleet had female captains right from the early days, and there was never a ban on women in the Big Chair.






          share|improve this answer













          There are two interpretations of that scene. The first, and the one generally accepted these days, is that she was off her rocker, and made a statement that stated there was discrimination against her because of what group she belonged to (ie, women), thus explaining her own failings.



          Unfortunately, that wasn't the original meaning. The original intent of that scene was that she was speaking the absolute truth: Starfleet didn't allow women in command.



          This was confirmed by Nimoy and Shatner in a conversation with the authors of Shatner's 1979 biography Where No Man...




          "What is easier for me to deal with on that particular script is the
          knowledge that the writer was making a script in which his goal was to
          prove, quote, 'That women, although they claim equality, cannot really
          do things as well as, under certain circumstances, as a man -- like
          the command function, for example. And it was a rather chauvinistic,
          clumsy handling of an interesting question. What he set out to prove
          was that this lady, given command of the ship, would blow it. That’s
          really what the script was about. Just that simple. You see."



          "Yeah," Bill agrees. “The problems were solved without really --"



          Leonard cuts in, nodding. "That’s, what I was dealing with when we
          were shooting that show -- the knowledge that that was the concept.
          And I rebelled against the concept. I was uncomfortable doing the
          whole show because I didn’t believe in the concept."




          Roddenberry later admitted the line was sexist and said he regretted it. However, it was very much in keeping for him. Roddenberry's original story was even worse.



          At the time he was going through a nasty divorce, and had a low opinion of women in general--and there are many reports of the time of the crap he said, including statements like "...all women are c***s who can't be trusted" (said several times at story meetings). It's reliably reported that, even putting the divorce aside, he was absurdly sexist even for the time.



          You can see the same sort of thing earlier, in the original pilot "The Cage" (later re-used in "The Menagerie") when Christopher Pike makes a statement about being uncomfortable with the idea of a woman on the bridge, which then causes the bit between him and Number One about not considering her as a woman.



          Incidentally, the reason Majel Barrett was dropped from the role, contrary to Roddenberry's later statements, had nothing to do with the studio/network being uncomfortable with a woman being second in command, as he claimed. What they had a problem with wasn't an actress playing the part, they had a problem with an actress then having an affair with Roddenberry playing the part, as they were nervous about the potential backstage drama that could result. But anyway...



          So, long answer short, yes, the line and backstory was intended to be absolutely as sexist as it appears: Lester is justifiably bitter that as competent as she otherwise was, she could never command a starship because Starfleet didn't want women putting cooties all over their captain's seats.



          However, even at the time it was recognized just how offensive that idea was, and it grew even more unacceptable, so by the time the 1980s rolled around and Star Trek IV showed the captain of USS Saratoga was a woman, it was firmly understood the idea was stupid, and everyone proceeded to ignore it. So, gradually, the contorted explanation that no, Janice Lester was just crazy and Good Ol' Gene wasn't a misogynistic ass became the accepted one. Christopher Pike, when he showed up on Discovery, didn't have any sort of issue with women in senior positions (even reporting directly to one), Starfleet had female captains right from the early days, and there was never a ban on women in the Big Chair.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 2 hours ago









          Keith MorrisonKeith Morrison

          8,30711432




          8,30711432












          • Star Trek Continues (now sadly milkshake-ducked) did tackle this issue directly, trying to treat it as canon in order to tell an interesting story. Non-canon fan production of course. Thanks for the interesting and detailed answer.

            – user
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @user Milkshake-ducked?

            – Mason Wheeler
            39 mins ago











          • @MasonWheeler "initially perceived as positive, only to soon after be revealed as deeply flawed" (I had to look it up too)

            – bertieb
            29 mins ago











          • What makes star trek continues "milkshake ducked"?

            – OganM
            10 mins ago











          • I seem to recall there being a female admiral or two in some of the movies (specifically in some of the scenes where they're admonishing and/or demoting Kirk for his recklessness). Since one presumably cannot become an admiral without first being a captain, this would imply that female captains were a thing even at that point...

            – Darrel Hoffman
            3 mins ago

















          • Star Trek Continues (now sadly milkshake-ducked) did tackle this issue directly, trying to treat it as canon in order to tell an interesting story. Non-canon fan production of course. Thanks for the interesting and detailed answer.

            – user
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            @user Milkshake-ducked?

            – Mason Wheeler
            39 mins ago











          • @MasonWheeler "initially perceived as positive, only to soon after be revealed as deeply flawed" (I had to look it up too)

            – bertieb
            29 mins ago











          • What makes star trek continues "milkshake ducked"?

            – OganM
            10 mins ago











          • I seem to recall there being a female admiral or two in some of the movies (specifically in some of the scenes where they're admonishing and/or demoting Kirk for his recklessness). Since one presumably cannot become an admiral without first being a captain, this would imply that female captains were a thing even at that point...

            – Darrel Hoffman
            3 mins ago
















          Star Trek Continues (now sadly milkshake-ducked) did tackle this issue directly, trying to treat it as canon in order to tell an interesting story. Non-canon fan production of course. Thanks for the interesting and detailed answer.

          – user
          2 hours ago





          Star Trek Continues (now sadly milkshake-ducked) did tackle this issue directly, trying to treat it as canon in order to tell an interesting story. Non-canon fan production of course. Thanks for the interesting and detailed answer.

          – user
          2 hours ago




          1




          1





          @user Milkshake-ducked?

          – Mason Wheeler
          39 mins ago





          @user Milkshake-ducked?

          – Mason Wheeler
          39 mins ago













          @MasonWheeler "initially perceived as positive, only to soon after be revealed as deeply flawed" (I had to look it up too)

          – bertieb
          29 mins ago





          @MasonWheeler "initially perceived as positive, only to soon after be revealed as deeply flawed" (I had to look it up too)

          – bertieb
          29 mins ago













          What makes star trek continues "milkshake ducked"?

          – OganM
          10 mins ago





          What makes star trek continues "milkshake ducked"?

          – OganM
          10 mins ago













          I seem to recall there being a female admiral or two in some of the movies (specifically in some of the scenes where they're admonishing and/or demoting Kirk for his recklessness). Since one presumably cannot become an admiral without first being a captain, this would imply that female captains were a thing even at that point...

          – Darrel Hoffman
          3 mins ago





          I seem to recall there being a female admiral or two in some of the movies (specifically in some of the scenes where they're admonishing and/or demoting Kirk for his recklessness). Since one presumably cannot become an admiral without first being a captain, this would imply that female captains were a thing even at that point...

          – Darrel Hoffman
          3 mins ago













          1














          I'm not sure we can infer an absolute limit on gender roles based on a single line. Certainly it was not Roddenberry's meaning -




          “Nowhere in my story was the statement made that this woman wasn’t qualified to command because of her gender. She lacked the qualifications on a personal level, and she also happened to be emotionally unstable. In her mind, sure, she was being discriminated against. And that could have been another theme in the story — how we can limit ourselves because of our own belief that we will be discriminated against. It can become a self-profiling prophecy.”



          These Are The Voyages -TOS Season Three by Marc Cushman




          Although Kirk agrees with her we could see his comment as placatory rather than actual "agreement" with her position.




          KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.



          JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.



          KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.



          Chakotya.net







          share|improve this answer























          • This answers the now edited question (or at least I think it does) but more indirectly because it was tailored at the original question. It might be worth you doing a quick edit to bring it inline with the more specific version of the rewritten question.

            – TheLethalCarrot
            5 hours ago






          • 4





            I read that dialogue differently. To me she's saying that the world of starship captains excludes relationships, which a screenwriter in the 60's may have written as "doesn't admit women". This exchange is more like "But my life, my love and my lady / is the sea" and not a discrimination discussion.

            – tbrookside
            4 hours ago











          • @TheLethalCarrot TBH I'm not sure how I could edit the answer. The question was based (to my mind) on a single line that the OP assumed implied gender limits. I'm not sure extending that assumption to other ST era is helpful or useful since, AFACT, it's not true. Roddenberry's comment aside (and some disagreed) evidence of such limits in not evident (from my recollections).

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago












          • I confess, my original thought was alongside of the one from tbrookside (relationship-based) but I found the quote for GR and went from there.

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago






          • 3





            Yeah, it was entirely Roddenberry's intent, and he meant it. It was only later that he backtracked because it eventually got through to him what a complete ass it made it him look like.

            – Keith Morrison
            2 hours ago















          1














          I'm not sure we can infer an absolute limit on gender roles based on a single line. Certainly it was not Roddenberry's meaning -




          “Nowhere in my story was the statement made that this woman wasn’t qualified to command because of her gender. She lacked the qualifications on a personal level, and she also happened to be emotionally unstable. In her mind, sure, she was being discriminated against. And that could have been another theme in the story — how we can limit ourselves because of our own belief that we will be discriminated against. It can become a self-profiling prophecy.”



          These Are The Voyages -TOS Season Three by Marc Cushman




          Although Kirk agrees with her we could see his comment as placatory rather than actual "agreement" with her position.




          KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.



          JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.



          KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.



          Chakotya.net







          share|improve this answer























          • This answers the now edited question (or at least I think it does) but more indirectly because it was tailored at the original question. It might be worth you doing a quick edit to bring it inline with the more specific version of the rewritten question.

            – TheLethalCarrot
            5 hours ago






          • 4





            I read that dialogue differently. To me she's saying that the world of starship captains excludes relationships, which a screenwriter in the 60's may have written as "doesn't admit women". This exchange is more like "But my life, my love and my lady / is the sea" and not a discrimination discussion.

            – tbrookside
            4 hours ago











          • @TheLethalCarrot TBH I'm not sure how I could edit the answer. The question was based (to my mind) on a single line that the OP assumed implied gender limits. I'm not sure extending that assumption to other ST era is helpful or useful since, AFACT, it's not true. Roddenberry's comment aside (and some disagreed) evidence of such limits in not evident (from my recollections).

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago












          • I confess, my original thought was alongside of the one from tbrookside (relationship-based) but I found the quote for GR and went from there.

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago






          • 3





            Yeah, it was entirely Roddenberry's intent, and he meant it. It was only later that he backtracked because it eventually got through to him what a complete ass it made it him look like.

            – Keith Morrison
            2 hours ago













          1












          1








          1







          I'm not sure we can infer an absolute limit on gender roles based on a single line. Certainly it was not Roddenberry's meaning -




          “Nowhere in my story was the statement made that this woman wasn’t qualified to command because of her gender. She lacked the qualifications on a personal level, and she also happened to be emotionally unstable. In her mind, sure, she was being discriminated against. And that could have been another theme in the story — how we can limit ourselves because of our own belief that we will be discriminated against. It can become a self-profiling prophecy.”



          These Are The Voyages -TOS Season Three by Marc Cushman




          Although Kirk agrees with her we could see his comment as placatory rather than actual "agreement" with her position.




          KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.



          JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.



          KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.



          Chakotya.net







          share|improve this answer













          I'm not sure we can infer an absolute limit on gender roles based on a single line. Certainly it was not Roddenberry's meaning -




          “Nowhere in my story was the statement made that this woman wasn’t qualified to command because of her gender. She lacked the qualifications on a personal level, and she also happened to be emotionally unstable. In her mind, sure, she was being discriminated against. And that could have been another theme in the story — how we can limit ourselves because of our own belief that we will be discriminated against. It can become a self-profiling prophecy.”



          These Are The Voyages -TOS Season Three by Marc Cushman




          Although Kirk agrees with her we could see his comment as placatory rather than actual "agreement" with her position.




          KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.



          JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.



          KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.



          Chakotya.net








          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 6 hours ago









          Paulie_DPaulie_D

          15.3k25871




          15.3k25871












          • This answers the now edited question (or at least I think it does) but more indirectly because it was tailored at the original question. It might be worth you doing a quick edit to bring it inline with the more specific version of the rewritten question.

            – TheLethalCarrot
            5 hours ago






          • 4





            I read that dialogue differently. To me she's saying that the world of starship captains excludes relationships, which a screenwriter in the 60's may have written as "doesn't admit women". This exchange is more like "But my life, my love and my lady / is the sea" and not a discrimination discussion.

            – tbrookside
            4 hours ago











          • @TheLethalCarrot TBH I'm not sure how I could edit the answer. The question was based (to my mind) on a single line that the OP assumed implied gender limits. I'm not sure extending that assumption to other ST era is helpful or useful since, AFACT, it's not true. Roddenberry's comment aside (and some disagreed) evidence of such limits in not evident (from my recollections).

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago












          • I confess, my original thought was alongside of the one from tbrookside (relationship-based) but I found the quote for GR and went from there.

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago






          • 3





            Yeah, it was entirely Roddenberry's intent, and he meant it. It was only later that he backtracked because it eventually got through to him what a complete ass it made it him look like.

            – Keith Morrison
            2 hours ago

















          • This answers the now edited question (or at least I think it does) but more indirectly because it was tailored at the original question. It might be worth you doing a quick edit to bring it inline with the more specific version of the rewritten question.

            – TheLethalCarrot
            5 hours ago






          • 4





            I read that dialogue differently. To me she's saying that the world of starship captains excludes relationships, which a screenwriter in the 60's may have written as "doesn't admit women". This exchange is more like "But my life, my love and my lady / is the sea" and not a discrimination discussion.

            – tbrookside
            4 hours ago











          • @TheLethalCarrot TBH I'm not sure how I could edit the answer. The question was based (to my mind) on a single line that the OP assumed implied gender limits. I'm not sure extending that assumption to other ST era is helpful or useful since, AFACT, it's not true. Roddenberry's comment aside (and some disagreed) evidence of such limits in not evident (from my recollections).

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago












          • I confess, my original thought was alongside of the one from tbrookside (relationship-based) but I found the quote for GR and went from there.

            – Paulie_D
            4 hours ago






          • 3





            Yeah, it was entirely Roddenberry's intent, and he meant it. It was only later that he backtracked because it eventually got through to him what a complete ass it made it him look like.

            – Keith Morrison
            2 hours ago
















          This answers the now edited question (or at least I think it does) but more indirectly because it was tailored at the original question. It might be worth you doing a quick edit to bring it inline with the more specific version of the rewritten question.

          – TheLethalCarrot
          5 hours ago





          This answers the now edited question (or at least I think it does) but more indirectly because it was tailored at the original question. It might be worth you doing a quick edit to bring it inline with the more specific version of the rewritten question.

          – TheLethalCarrot
          5 hours ago




          4




          4





          I read that dialogue differently. To me she's saying that the world of starship captains excludes relationships, which a screenwriter in the 60's may have written as "doesn't admit women". This exchange is more like "But my life, my love and my lady / is the sea" and not a discrimination discussion.

          – tbrookside
          4 hours ago





          I read that dialogue differently. To me she's saying that the world of starship captains excludes relationships, which a screenwriter in the 60's may have written as "doesn't admit women". This exchange is more like "But my life, my love and my lady / is the sea" and not a discrimination discussion.

          – tbrookside
          4 hours ago













          @TheLethalCarrot TBH I'm not sure how I could edit the answer. The question was based (to my mind) on a single line that the OP assumed implied gender limits. I'm not sure extending that assumption to other ST era is helpful or useful since, AFACT, it's not true. Roddenberry's comment aside (and some disagreed) evidence of such limits in not evident (from my recollections).

          – Paulie_D
          4 hours ago






          @TheLethalCarrot TBH I'm not sure how I could edit the answer. The question was based (to my mind) on a single line that the OP assumed implied gender limits. I'm not sure extending that assumption to other ST era is helpful or useful since, AFACT, it's not true. Roddenberry's comment aside (and some disagreed) evidence of such limits in not evident (from my recollections).

          – Paulie_D
          4 hours ago














          I confess, my original thought was alongside of the one from tbrookside (relationship-based) but I found the quote for GR and went from there.

          – Paulie_D
          4 hours ago





          I confess, my original thought was alongside of the one from tbrookside (relationship-based) but I found the quote for GR and went from there.

          – Paulie_D
          4 hours ago




          3




          3





          Yeah, it was entirely Roddenberry's intent, and he meant it. It was only later that he backtracked because it eventually got through to him what a complete ass it made it him look like.

          – Keith Morrison
          2 hours ago





          Yeah, it was entirely Roddenberry's intent, and he meant it. It was only later that he backtracked because it eventually got through to him what a complete ass it made it him look like.

          – Keith Morrison
          2 hours ago

















          draft saved

          draft discarded
















































          Thanks for contributing an answer to Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid


          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fscifi.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f207630%2fwhen-were-female-captains-banned-from-starfleet%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          Popular posts from this blog

          Oświęcim Innehåll Historia | Källor | Externa länkar | Navigeringsmeny50°2′18″N 19°13′17″Ö / 50.03833°N 19.22139°Ö / 50.03833; 19.2213950°2′18″N 19°13′17″Ö / 50.03833°N 19.22139°Ö / 50.03833; 19.221393089658Nordisk familjebok, AuschwitzInsidan tro och existensJewish Community i OświęcimAuschwitz Jewish Center: MuseumAuschwitz Jewish Center

          Valle di Casies Indice Geografia fisica | Origini del nome | Storia | Società | Amministrazione | Sport | Note | Bibliografia | Voci correlate | Altri progetti | Collegamenti esterni | Menu di navigazione46°46′N 12°11′E / 46.766667°N 12.183333°E46.766667; 12.183333 (Valle di Casies)46°46′N 12°11′E / 46.766667°N 12.183333°E46.766667; 12.183333 (Valle di Casies)Sito istituzionaleAstat Censimento della popolazione 2011 - Determinazione della consistenza dei tre gruppi linguistici della Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano-Alto Adige - giugno 2012Numeri e fattiValle di CasiesDato IstatTabella dei gradi/giorno dei Comuni italiani raggruppati per Regione e Provincia26 agosto 1993, n. 412Heraldry of the World: GsiesStatistiche I.StatValCasies.comWikimedia CommonsWikimedia CommonsValle di CasiesSito ufficialeValle di CasiesMM14870458910042978-6

          Typsetting diagram chases (with TikZ?) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)How to define the default vertical distance between nodes?Draw edge on arcNumerical conditional within tikz keys?TikZ: Drawing an arc from an intersection to an intersectionDrawing rectilinear curves in Tikz, aka an Etch-a-Sketch drawingLine up nested tikz enviroments or how to get rid of themHow to place nodes in an absolute coordinate system in tikzCommutative diagram with curve connecting between nodesTikz with standalone: pinning tikz coordinates to page cmDrawing a Decision Diagram with Tikz and layout manager