Do jazz musicians improvise on the parent scale in addition to the chord-scales? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Whole-step technique for figuring out jazz chord-scales?How to achieve jazzier improvisation?Using modes for jazz solo improvisationWhat are the best ways to practice Jazz improvisation on the guitar?Playing scales over I IV V progressionHow to recognize the modal scale starting from the chord?Jazz improvisation on descending chord progressionIs the melodic minor scale use as the basis of chord progressions in modern jazz?How to turn each chord in a progression into separate scales?Are Secondary Dominants related to Chord-Scales?Whole-step technique for figuring out jazz chord-scales?

Around usage results

Closed form of recurrent arithmetic series summation

Do square wave exist?

Generate an RGB colour grid

Is it a good idea to use CNN to classify 1D signal?

What are the best places to gain the most altitude in a glider?

Why do we bend a book to keep it straight?

Is there such thing as an Availability Group failover trigger?

Compare a given version number in the form major.minor.build.patch and see if one is less than the other

Quick way to create a symlink?

Is safe to use va_start macro with this as parameter?

How to compare two different files line by line in unix?

Circuit to "zoom in" on mV fluctuations of a DC signal?

Dating a Former Employee

When coming out of haste, do attackers have advantage on you?

Is it common practice to audition new musicians 1-2-1 before rehearsing with the entire band?

How to answer "Have you ever been terminated?"

Do wooden building fires get hotter than 600°C?

Can a party unilaterally change candidates in preparation for a General election?

2001: A Space Odyssey's use of the song "Daisy Bell" (Bicycle Built for Two); life imitates art or vice-versa?

Is there a kind of relay only consumes power when switching?

Is the Standard Deduction better than Itemized when both are the same amount?

What does the "x" in "x86" represent?

Do I really need recursive chmod to restrict access to a folder?



Do jazz musicians improvise on the parent scale in addition to the chord-scales?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Whole-step technique for figuring out jazz chord-scales?How to achieve jazzier improvisation?Using modes for jazz solo improvisationWhat are the best ways to practice Jazz improvisation on the guitar?Playing scales over I IV V progressionHow to recognize the modal scale starting from the chord?Jazz improvisation on descending chord progressionIs the melodic minor scale use as the basis of chord progressions in modern jazz?How to turn each chord in a progression into separate scales?Are Secondary Dominants related to Chord-Scales?Whole-step technique for figuring out jazz chord-scales?










1















I noticed that jazz musicians improvise on actual chords. This makes sense for modal jazz since the chords in the progression might not be related.



But for tonal jazz, say we have a "ii-V-I" progression. I've seen videos where they improvise on each chord. so the ii7 might have a Dorian scale, the V7 may have an associated Mixolydian scale, and the I might have a Lydian scale.



But what about the parent key? In pop I'm used to people improvising on the actual key. So for example if this was C-major, that's the scale they'd improvise on. Does that happen in jazz too? What scale does the melody come from?



Edit: I wasn't aware how many scales are in an actual jazz song. I just started working on standards in the last few days. so I guess the melody is influenced from the different scales that make up the piece. I was used to pop where the melody was usually just one scale.










share|improve this question
























  • I can't comprehend the question. Every jazz player that I like to listen to does all and none of these things. The chords don't define the tune and improv is variation on a theme. The great ones use the head, which can be harmonized many different ways. And by the way, all those head notes are "in or near the chords that harmonize them" and "in the modes and or parent key", modulo accidentals.

    – ggcg
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    @ggcg so you're saying they do both?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago











  • I thought that was the opposite of what I was trying to say but... Melodies and harmonies are grown from the scales/modes so you are using them whether you know it or not. But getting ideas from scales and chords ignores the real music, the head. I can't read minds but the evidence would suggest that the great ones don't concern themselves with too much theory and edit the melody and makes licks from melody lines.

    – ggcg
    2 hours ago











  • @ggcg I think there's some terminology that I don't understand. what do you mean by 'head'. I'm guessing it's just the key of the song?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    So, rather than meandering about, literally take a phrase and elevate it. The first phrase of Ornithology is a great one to shred with, and a typical Parker-ism as he uses it all over the place.

    – ggcg
    1 hour ago















1















I noticed that jazz musicians improvise on actual chords. This makes sense for modal jazz since the chords in the progression might not be related.



But for tonal jazz, say we have a "ii-V-I" progression. I've seen videos where they improvise on each chord. so the ii7 might have a Dorian scale, the V7 may have an associated Mixolydian scale, and the I might have a Lydian scale.



But what about the parent key? In pop I'm used to people improvising on the actual key. So for example if this was C-major, that's the scale they'd improvise on. Does that happen in jazz too? What scale does the melody come from?



Edit: I wasn't aware how many scales are in an actual jazz song. I just started working on standards in the last few days. so I guess the melody is influenced from the different scales that make up the piece. I was used to pop where the melody was usually just one scale.










share|improve this question
























  • I can't comprehend the question. Every jazz player that I like to listen to does all and none of these things. The chords don't define the tune and improv is variation on a theme. The great ones use the head, which can be harmonized many different ways. And by the way, all those head notes are "in or near the chords that harmonize them" and "in the modes and or parent key", modulo accidentals.

    – ggcg
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    @ggcg so you're saying they do both?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago











  • I thought that was the opposite of what I was trying to say but... Melodies and harmonies are grown from the scales/modes so you are using them whether you know it or not. But getting ideas from scales and chords ignores the real music, the head. I can't read minds but the evidence would suggest that the great ones don't concern themselves with too much theory and edit the melody and makes licks from melody lines.

    – ggcg
    2 hours ago











  • @ggcg I think there's some terminology that I don't understand. what do you mean by 'head'. I'm guessing it's just the key of the song?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    So, rather than meandering about, literally take a phrase and elevate it. The first phrase of Ornithology is a great one to shred with, and a typical Parker-ism as he uses it all over the place.

    – ggcg
    1 hour ago













1












1








1








I noticed that jazz musicians improvise on actual chords. This makes sense for modal jazz since the chords in the progression might not be related.



But for tonal jazz, say we have a "ii-V-I" progression. I've seen videos where they improvise on each chord. so the ii7 might have a Dorian scale, the V7 may have an associated Mixolydian scale, and the I might have a Lydian scale.



But what about the parent key? In pop I'm used to people improvising on the actual key. So for example if this was C-major, that's the scale they'd improvise on. Does that happen in jazz too? What scale does the melody come from?



Edit: I wasn't aware how many scales are in an actual jazz song. I just started working on standards in the last few days. so I guess the melody is influenced from the different scales that make up the piece. I was used to pop where the melody was usually just one scale.










share|improve this question
















I noticed that jazz musicians improvise on actual chords. This makes sense for modal jazz since the chords in the progression might not be related.



But for tonal jazz, say we have a "ii-V-I" progression. I've seen videos where they improvise on each chord. so the ii7 might have a Dorian scale, the V7 may have an associated Mixolydian scale, and the I might have a Lydian scale.



But what about the parent key? In pop I'm used to people improvising on the actual key. So for example if this was C-major, that's the scale they'd improvise on. Does that happen in jazz too? What scale does the melody come from?



Edit: I wasn't aware how many scales are in an actual jazz song. I just started working on standards in the last few days. so I guess the melody is influenced from the different scales that make up the piece. I was used to pop where the melody was usually just one scale.







jazz improvisation






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago







foreyez

















asked 3 hours ago









foreyezforeyez

5,69042689




5,69042689












  • I can't comprehend the question. Every jazz player that I like to listen to does all and none of these things. The chords don't define the tune and improv is variation on a theme. The great ones use the head, which can be harmonized many different ways. And by the way, all those head notes are "in or near the chords that harmonize them" and "in the modes and or parent key", modulo accidentals.

    – ggcg
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    @ggcg so you're saying they do both?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago











  • I thought that was the opposite of what I was trying to say but... Melodies and harmonies are grown from the scales/modes so you are using them whether you know it or not. But getting ideas from scales and chords ignores the real music, the head. I can't read minds but the evidence would suggest that the great ones don't concern themselves with too much theory and edit the melody and makes licks from melody lines.

    – ggcg
    2 hours ago











  • @ggcg I think there's some terminology that I don't understand. what do you mean by 'head'. I'm guessing it's just the key of the song?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    So, rather than meandering about, literally take a phrase and elevate it. The first phrase of Ornithology is a great one to shred with, and a typical Parker-ism as he uses it all over the place.

    – ggcg
    1 hour ago

















  • I can't comprehend the question. Every jazz player that I like to listen to does all and none of these things. The chords don't define the tune and improv is variation on a theme. The great ones use the head, which can be harmonized many different ways. And by the way, all those head notes are "in or near the chords that harmonize them" and "in the modes and or parent key", modulo accidentals.

    – ggcg
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    @ggcg so you're saying they do both?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago











  • I thought that was the opposite of what I was trying to say but... Melodies and harmonies are grown from the scales/modes so you are using them whether you know it or not. But getting ideas from scales and chords ignores the real music, the head. I can't read minds but the evidence would suggest that the great ones don't concern themselves with too much theory and edit the melody and makes licks from melody lines.

    – ggcg
    2 hours ago











  • @ggcg I think there's some terminology that I don't understand. what do you mean by 'head'. I'm guessing it's just the key of the song?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    So, rather than meandering about, literally take a phrase and elevate it. The first phrase of Ornithology is a great one to shred with, and a typical Parker-ism as he uses it all over the place.

    – ggcg
    1 hour ago
















I can't comprehend the question. Every jazz player that I like to listen to does all and none of these things. The chords don't define the tune and improv is variation on a theme. The great ones use the head, which can be harmonized many different ways. And by the way, all those head notes are "in or near the chords that harmonize them" and "in the modes and or parent key", modulo accidentals.

– ggcg
2 hours ago





I can't comprehend the question. Every jazz player that I like to listen to does all and none of these things. The chords don't define the tune and improv is variation on a theme. The great ones use the head, which can be harmonized many different ways. And by the way, all those head notes are "in or near the chords that harmonize them" and "in the modes and or parent key", modulo accidentals.

– ggcg
2 hours ago




1




1





@ggcg so you're saying they do both?

– foreyez
2 hours ago





@ggcg so you're saying they do both?

– foreyez
2 hours ago













I thought that was the opposite of what I was trying to say but... Melodies and harmonies are grown from the scales/modes so you are using them whether you know it or not. But getting ideas from scales and chords ignores the real music, the head. I can't read minds but the evidence would suggest that the great ones don't concern themselves with too much theory and edit the melody and makes licks from melody lines.

– ggcg
2 hours ago





I thought that was the opposite of what I was trying to say but... Melodies and harmonies are grown from the scales/modes so you are using them whether you know it or not. But getting ideas from scales and chords ignores the real music, the head. I can't read minds but the evidence would suggest that the great ones don't concern themselves with too much theory and edit the melody and makes licks from melody lines.

– ggcg
2 hours ago













@ggcg I think there's some terminology that I don't understand. what do you mean by 'head'. I'm guessing it's just the key of the song?

– foreyez
2 hours ago





@ggcg I think there's some terminology that I don't understand. what do you mean by 'head'. I'm guessing it's just the key of the song?

– foreyez
2 hours ago




1




1





So, rather than meandering about, literally take a phrase and elevate it. The first phrase of Ornithology is a great one to shred with, and a typical Parker-ism as he uses it all over the place.

– ggcg
1 hour ago





So, rather than meandering about, literally take a phrase and elevate it. The first phrase of Ornithology is a great one to shred with, and a typical Parker-ism as he uses it all over the place.

– ggcg
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3














Traditional jazz - roughly 1930's to 1950's - based improvisation on embellished arpeggios which followed the chord changes of a song.



Modal jazz moved away from arpeggios on rapid chord changes and focused more on scales as the basis of improvisation.



Later in the 1970's chord/scale system emerged as a way to teach jazz.



A huge list of jazz greats didn't use the chord/scale system.



In that great jazz past, when someone improvised over ii V I, using arpeggios, were they thinking about the "parent key?" Maybe. It's hard to know exactly what they thought. But, we have records and transcripts of solos to know what they played. It can be tricky to talk about inextricably linked ideas like scale/key/chord/melody, even trickier to get inside a past musician's head to know what they thought.



You might want to get improvisation transcriptions of particular solos that you want to emulate and then analyse the music... then try asking questions about how they may have conceptualized what they were playing.




EDIT



Below is one bar from a Charlie Parker solo transcript...



enter image description here



...the phrase can be analyzed as an arpeggio - broken chord, if that term is preferred - embellished with non-chord tones which I circled in red: an appoggiatura high D and two passing tones B and low D.



The full transcript is at http://www.jasonstillman.com/uploads/3/0/2/8/3028328/charlie_parker_cherokee.pdf



This kind of melodic line is found in lots of solos. In fact you should notice a conspicuous absence of scales - conjunct, step-wise motion - rather you will see a lot of disjunct motion on chord tones.



Keep in mind that when a seventh chord is filled in with passing tones it will produce a full octave scale at which point we can't really make a clear distinction between chord based or scale based although the majority of the material will most likely display chord tone based lines. This filling in a broken chord with non-chord tones was to main point of your earlier question Whole-step technique for figuring out jazz chord-scales?.




Compare to John Coltrane's solo on So What for a modal approach that appears more scale based. I have to show a longer excerpt to reflect the very long harmonic rhythm of one chord for many bars...



enter image description here



...notice the long lines of step-wise motion (scalar playing) and there are two phrases that encompass a full octave of straight scale lines. This is an example of scales in modal jazz.






share|improve this answer

























  • not sure what you mean by 'arpeggios'. arpeggios as in chords? might need a super simple example for traditional versus modal.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago












  • a chord typically means all the notes are played at once. an arpeggio is a chord played one note at a time.

    – pro
    2 hours ago











  • @pro yes I know but I mean, what were they arpeggiating in traditional jazz exactly?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago











  • @foreyez something that approximated or implied a chord progression of the song. But not in a strict fashion, and generally done by ear not based on any chord sheets. And different players relied on this technique more or less than others. For example listen to the solos on this record. At points there is clear reliance on melodic content that dances around arpeggios (especially in satchmo's playing), but there is also a fair amount of other stuff going on too youtube.com/watch?v=544wGNkZcm8

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago







  • 1





    @foreyez, I made an edit re. "...what were they arpeggiating...?"

    – Michael Curtis
    1 hour ago


















3














Yes, some jazz musicians improvise on the key, especially when they are improvising from the melody, not the chords (harmony).



The advantage of improvising on the harmony is that you minimize the clashing notes and have a ready palette of color notes that come from ornamenting the underlying chord.



But some jazz musicians improvise entirely from the melody, such as Bill Frisell. In this case, improvising on the key gives you a distinct advantage, because you can concentrate on deconstructing and reconstructing melodic fragments.



Keep in mind that in a given melody, even if it is in a particular key, there may be key centers that suggest different keys within the same tune. For example, even if you improvise on a particular key, different sections may have different modes based on the melody (key signature) scale.



For example, for a tune in the key of D major, the first section might be D Ionian but a different section might be in A Mixolydian. Same key signature, different scales. In a different mode you concentrate on different notes. So in my example, your "strong" notes (1, 3, 5) and chords (I, ii, IV, V, vi) in D Ionian are going to be different than in A Mixolydian.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    oh so you're distinguishing it from improvising on the melody (which is the key), and improvising on the harmony (which could be different scales). first time I heard that.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    that last edit made alot of sense, thanks

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    melody follows the changes as much as it follows the chords. If you improvise around the melody you'll be using a mix of the key and the changes... and passing notes and everything else

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    @foreyez I'm saying that melody exists in a harmonic context, and that in most western music, that harmonic context includes both the pitch centre in general and also the harmony at that present time in the song. Part of what goes into a melody is choosing notes that outline that harmonic context, both of the home key, and the current harmony. So a melody might include notes that imply the chords, or it might deliberately choose notes that clash with or embellish the chords, but all of those notes will be heard in relation to both the chords and the key.

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 2





    for an example of a song that includes lots of weird harmonic movements, and has a melody that dances around these weird movements, there is desafinado by Tom Jobim. It's literally called "out of tune" and is deliberately cleverly written to have a bizarre melody that only works because it implies an underlying (complex af) harmonic structure. On the opposite side "pyramid song" by radiohead works by essentially reusing the same notes in the melody again and again and re-contextualising them with new chords. Both approaches produce interesting effects and both can be (and are) used in a solo.

    – Some_Guy
    51 mins ago











Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f82921%2fdo-jazz-musicians-improvise-on-the-parent-scale-in-addition-to-the-chord-scales%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









3














Traditional jazz - roughly 1930's to 1950's - based improvisation on embellished arpeggios which followed the chord changes of a song.



Modal jazz moved away from arpeggios on rapid chord changes and focused more on scales as the basis of improvisation.



Later in the 1970's chord/scale system emerged as a way to teach jazz.



A huge list of jazz greats didn't use the chord/scale system.



In that great jazz past, when someone improvised over ii V I, using arpeggios, were they thinking about the "parent key?" Maybe. It's hard to know exactly what they thought. But, we have records and transcripts of solos to know what they played. It can be tricky to talk about inextricably linked ideas like scale/key/chord/melody, even trickier to get inside a past musician's head to know what they thought.



You might want to get improvisation transcriptions of particular solos that you want to emulate and then analyse the music... then try asking questions about how they may have conceptualized what they were playing.




EDIT



Below is one bar from a Charlie Parker solo transcript...



enter image description here



...the phrase can be analyzed as an arpeggio - broken chord, if that term is preferred - embellished with non-chord tones which I circled in red: an appoggiatura high D and two passing tones B and low D.



The full transcript is at http://www.jasonstillman.com/uploads/3/0/2/8/3028328/charlie_parker_cherokee.pdf



This kind of melodic line is found in lots of solos. In fact you should notice a conspicuous absence of scales - conjunct, step-wise motion - rather you will see a lot of disjunct motion on chord tones.



Keep in mind that when a seventh chord is filled in with passing tones it will produce a full octave scale at which point we can't really make a clear distinction between chord based or scale based although the majority of the material will most likely display chord tone based lines. This filling in a broken chord with non-chord tones was to main point of your earlier question Whole-step technique for figuring out jazz chord-scales?.




Compare to John Coltrane's solo on So What for a modal approach that appears more scale based. I have to show a longer excerpt to reflect the very long harmonic rhythm of one chord for many bars...



enter image description here



...notice the long lines of step-wise motion (scalar playing) and there are two phrases that encompass a full octave of straight scale lines. This is an example of scales in modal jazz.






share|improve this answer

























  • not sure what you mean by 'arpeggios'. arpeggios as in chords? might need a super simple example for traditional versus modal.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago












  • a chord typically means all the notes are played at once. an arpeggio is a chord played one note at a time.

    – pro
    2 hours ago











  • @pro yes I know but I mean, what were they arpeggiating in traditional jazz exactly?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago











  • @foreyez something that approximated or implied a chord progression of the song. But not in a strict fashion, and generally done by ear not based on any chord sheets. And different players relied on this technique more or less than others. For example listen to the solos on this record. At points there is clear reliance on melodic content that dances around arpeggios (especially in satchmo's playing), but there is also a fair amount of other stuff going on too youtube.com/watch?v=544wGNkZcm8

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago







  • 1





    @foreyez, I made an edit re. "...what were they arpeggiating...?"

    – Michael Curtis
    1 hour ago















3














Traditional jazz - roughly 1930's to 1950's - based improvisation on embellished arpeggios which followed the chord changes of a song.



Modal jazz moved away from arpeggios on rapid chord changes and focused more on scales as the basis of improvisation.



Later in the 1970's chord/scale system emerged as a way to teach jazz.



A huge list of jazz greats didn't use the chord/scale system.



In that great jazz past, when someone improvised over ii V I, using arpeggios, were they thinking about the "parent key?" Maybe. It's hard to know exactly what they thought. But, we have records and transcripts of solos to know what they played. It can be tricky to talk about inextricably linked ideas like scale/key/chord/melody, even trickier to get inside a past musician's head to know what they thought.



You might want to get improvisation transcriptions of particular solos that you want to emulate and then analyse the music... then try asking questions about how they may have conceptualized what they were playing.




EDIT



Below is one bar from a Charlie Parker solo transcript...



enter image description here



...the phrase can be analyzed as an arpeggio - broken chord, if that term is preferred - embellished with non-chord tones which I circled in red: an appoggiatura high D and two passing tones B and low D.



The full transcript is at http://www.jasonstillman.com/uploads/3/0/2/8/3028328/charlie_parker_cherokee.pdf



This kind of melodic line is found in lots of solos. In fact you should notice a conspicuous absence of scales - conjunct, step-wise motion - rather you will see a lot of disjunct motion on chord tones.



Keep in mind that when a seventh chord is filled in with passing tones it will produce a full octave scale at which point we can't really make a clear distinction between chord based or scale based although the majority of the material will most likely display chord tone based lines. This filling in a broken chord with non-chord tones was to main point of your earlier question Whole-step technique for figuring out jazz chord-scales?.




Compare to John Coltrane's solo on So What for a modal approach that appears more scale based. I have to show a longer excerpt to reflect the very long harmonic rhythm of one chord for many bars...



enter image description here



...notice the long lines of step-wise motion (scalar playing) and there are two phrases that encompass a full octave of straight scale lines. This is an example of scales in modal jazz.






share|improve this answer

























  • not sure what you mean by 'arpeggios'. arpeggios as in chords? might need a super simple example for traditional versus modal.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago












  • a chord typically means all the notes are played at once. an arpeggio is a chord played one note at a time.

    – pro
    2 hours ago











  • @pro yes I know but I mean, what were they arpeggiating in traditional jazz exactly?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago











  • @foreyez something that approximated or implied a chord progression of the song. But not in a strict fashion, and generally done by ear not based on any chord sheets. And different players relied on this technique more or less than others. For example listen to the solos on this record. At points there is clear reliance on melodic content that dances around arpeggios (especially in satchmo's playing), but there is also a fair amount of other stuff going on too youtube.com/watch?v=544wGNkZcm8

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago







  • 1





    @foreyez, I made an edit re. "...what were they arpeggiating...?"

    – Michael Curtis
    1 hour ago













3












3








3







Traditional jazz - roughly 1930's to 1950's - based improvisation on embellished arpeggios which followed the chord changes of a song.



Modal jazz moved away from arpeggios on rapid chord changes and focused more on scales as the basis of improvisation.



Later in the 1970's chord/scale system emerged as a way to teach jazz.



A huge list of jazz greats didn't use the chord/scale system.



In that great jazz past, when someone improvised over ii V I, using arpeggios, were they thinking about the "parent key?" Maybe. It's hard to know exactly what they thought. But, we have records and transcripts of solos to know what they played. It can be tricky to talk about inextricably linked ideas like scale/key/chord/melody, even trickier to get inside a past musician's head to know what they thought.



You might want to get improvisation transcriptions of particular solos that you want to emulate and then analyse the music... then try asking questions about how they may have conceptualized what they were playing.




EDIT



Below is one bar from a Charlie Parker solo transcript...



enter image description here



...the phrase can be analyzed as an arpeggio - broken chord, if that term is preferred - embellished with non-chord tones which I circled in red: an appoggiatura high D and two passing tones B and low D.



The full transcript is at http://www.jasonstillman.com/uploads/3/0/2/8/3028328/charlie_parker_cherokee.pdf



This kind of melodic line is found in lots of solos. In fact you should notice a conspicuous absence of scales - conjunct, step-wise motion - rather you will see a lot of disjunct motion on chord tones.



Keep in mind that when a seventh chord is filled in with passing tones it will produce a full octave scale at which point we can't really make a clear distinction between chord based or scale based although the majority of the material will most likely display chord tone based lines. This filling in a broken chord with non-chord tones was to main point of your earlier question Whole-step technique for figuring out jazz chord-scales?.




Compare to John Coltrane's solo on So What for a modal approach that appears more scale based. I have to show a longer excerpt to reflect the very long harmonic rhythm of one chord for many bars...



enter image description here



...notice the long lines of step-wise motion (scalar playing) and there are two phrases that encompass a full octave of straight scale lines. This is an example of scales in modal jazz.






share|improve this answer















Traditional jazz - roughly 1930's to 1950's - based improvisation on embellished arpeggios which followed the chord changes of a song.



Modal jazz moved away from arpeggios on rapid chord changes and focused more on scales as the basis of improvisation.



Later in the 1970's chord/scale system emerged as a way to teach jazz.



A huge list of jazz greats didn't use the chord/scale system.



In that great jazz past, when someone improvised over ii V I, using arpeggios, were they thinking about the "parent key?" Maybe. It's hard to know exactly what they thought. But, we have records and transcripts of solos to know what they played. It can be tricky to talk about inextricably linked ideas like scale/key/chord/melody, even trickier to get inside a past musician's head to know what they thought.



You might want to get improvisation transcriptions of particular solos that you want to emulate and then analyse the music... then try asking questions about how they may have conceptualized what they were playing.




EDIT



Below is one bar from a Charlie Parker solo transcript...



enter image description here



...the phrase can be analyzed as an arpeggio - broken chord, if that term is preferred - embellished with non-chord tones which I circled in red: an appoggiatura high D and two passing tones B and low D.



The full transcript is at http://www.jasonstillman.com/uploads/3/0/2/8/3028328/charlie_parker_cherokee.pdf



This kind of melodic line is found in lots of solos. In fact you should notice a conspicuous absence of scales - conjunct, step-wise motion - rather you will see a lot of disjunct motion on chord tones.



Keep in mind that when a seventh chord is filled in with passing tones it will produce a full octave scale at which point we can't really make a clear distinction between chord based or scale based although the majority of the material will most likely display chord tone based lines. This filling in a broken chord with non-chord tones was to main point of your earlier question Whole-step technique for figuring out jazz chord-scales?.




Compare to John Coltrane's solo on So What for a modal approach that appears more scale based. I have to show a longer excerpt to reflect the very long harmonic rhythm of one chord for many bars...



enter image description here



...notice the long lines of step-wise motion (scalar playing) and there are two phrases that encompass a full octave of straight scale lines. This is an example of scales in modal jazz.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 31 mins ago

























answered 2 hours ago









Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

12.1k744




12.1k744












  • not sure what you mean by 'arpeggios'. arpeggios as in chords? might need a super simple example for traditional versus modal.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago












  • a chord typically means all the notes are played at once. an arpeggio is a chord played one note at a time.

    – pro
    2 hours ago











  • @pro yes I know but I mean, what were they arpeggiating in traditional jazz exactly?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago











  • @foreyez something that approximated or implied a chord progression of the song. But not in a strict fashion, and generally done by ear not based on any chord sheets. And different players relied on this technique more or less than others. For example listen to the solos on this record. At points there is clear reliance on melodic content that dances around arpeggios (especially in satchmo's playing), but there is also a fair amount of other stuff going on too youtube.com/watch?v=544wGNkZcm8

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago







  • 1





    @foreyez, I made an edit re. "...what were they arpeggiating...?"

    – Michael Curtis
    1 hour ago

















  • not sure what you mean by 'arpeggios'. arpeggios as in chords? might need a super simple example for traditional versus modal.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago












  • a chord typically means all the notes are played at once. an arpeggio is a chord played one note at a time.

    – pro
    2 hours ago











  • @pro yes I know but I mean, what were they arpeggiating in traditional jazz exactly?

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago











  • @foreyez something that approximated or implied a chord progression of the song. But not in a strict fashion, and generally done by ear not based on any chord sheets. And different players relied on this technique more or less than others. For example listen to the solos on this record. At points there is clear reliance on melodic content that dances around arpeggios (especially in satchmo's playing), but there is also a fair amount of other stuff going on too youtube.com/watch?v=544wGNkZcm8

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago







  • 1





    @foreyez, I made an edit re. "...what were they arpeggiating...?"

    – Michael Curtis
    1 hour ago
















not sure what you mean by 'arpeggios'. arpeggios as in chords? might need a super simple example for traditional versus modal.

– foreyez
2 hours ago






not sure what you mean by 'arpeggios'. arpeggios as in chords? might need a super simple example for traditional versus modal.

– foreyez
2 hours ago














a chord typically means all the notes are played at once. an arpeggio is a chord played one note at a time.

– pro
2 hours ago





a chord typically means all the notes are played at once. an arpeggio is a chord played one note at a time.

– pro
2 hours ago













@pro yes I know but I mean, what were they arpeggiating in traditional jazz exactly?

– foreyez
2 hours ago





@pro yes I know but I mean, what were they arpeggiating in traditional jazz exactly?

– foreyez
2 hours ago













@foreyez something that approximated or implied a chord progression of the song. But not in a strict fashion, and generally done by ear not based on any chord sheets. And different players relied on this technique more or less than others. For example listen to the solos on this record. At points there is clear reliance on melodic content that dances around arpeggios (especially in satchmo's playing), but there is also a fair amount of other stuff going on too youtube.com/watch?v=544wGNkZcm8

– Some_Guy
1 hour ago






@foreyez something that approximated or implied a chord progression of the song. But not in a strict fashion, and generally done by ear not based on any chord sheets. And different players relied on this technique more or less than others. For example listen to the solos on this record. At points there is clear reliance on melodic content that dances around arpeggios (especially in satchmo's playing), but there is also a fair amount of other stuff going on too youtube.com/watch?v=544wGNkZcm8

– Some_Guy
1 hour ago





1




1





@foreyez, I made an edit re. "...what were they arpeggiating...?"

– Michael Curtis
1 hour ago





@foreyez, I made an edit re. "...what were they arpeggiating...?"

– Michael Curtis
1 hour ago











3














Yes, some jazz musicians improvise on the key, especially when they are improvising from the melody, not the chords (harmony).



The advantage of improvising on the harmony is that you minimize the clashing notes and have a ready palette of color notes that come from ornamenting the underlying chord.



But some jazz musicians improvise entirely from the melody, such as Bill Frisell. In this case, improvising on the key gives you a distinct advantage, because you can concentrate on deconstructing and reconstructing melodic fragments.



Keep in mind that in a given melody, even if it is in a particular key, there may be key centers that suggest different keys within the same tune. For example, even if you improvise on a particular key, different sections may have different modes based on the melody (key signature) scale.



For example, for a tune in the key of D major, the first section might be D Ionian but a different section might be in A Mixolydian. Same key signature, different scales. In a different mode you concentrate on different notes. So in my example, your "strong" notes (1, 3, 5) and chords (I, ii, IV, V, vi) in D Ionian are going to be different than in A Mixolydian.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    oh so you're distinguishing it from improvising on the melody (which is the key), and improvising on the harmony (which could be different scales). first time I heard that.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    that last edit made alot of sense, thanks

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    melody follows the changes as much as it follows the chords. If you improvise around the melody you'll be using a mix of the key and the changes... and passing notes and everything else

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    @foreyez I'm saying that melody exists in a harmonic context, and that in most western music, that harmonic context includes both the pitch centre in general and also the harmony at that present time in the song. Part of what goes into a melody is choosing notes that outline that harmonic context, both of the home key, and the current harmony. So a melody might include notes that imply the chords, or it might deliberately choose notes that clash with or embellish the chords, but all of those notes will be heard in relation to both the chords and the key.

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 2





    for an example of a song that includes lots of weird harmonic movements, and has a melody that dances around these weird movements, there is desafinado by Tom Jobim. It's literally called "out of tune" and is deliberately cleverly written to have a bizarre melody that only works because it implies an underlying (complex af) harmonic structure. On the opposite side "pyramid song" by radiohead works by essentially reusing the same notes in the melody again and again and re-contextualising them with new chords. Both approaches produce interesting effects and both can be (and are) used in a solo.

    – Some_Guy
    51 mins ago















3














Yes, some jazz musicians improvise on the key, especially when they are improvising from the melody, not the chords (harmony).



The advantage of improvising on the harmony is that you minimize the clashing notes and have a ready palette of color notes that come from ornamenting the underlying chord.



But some jazz musicians improvise entirely from the melody, such as Bill Frisell. In this case, improvising on the key gives you a distinct advantage, because you can concentrate on deconstructing and reconstructing melodic fragments.



Keep in mind that in a given melody, even if it is in a particular key, there may be key centers that suggest different keys within the same tune. For example, even if you improvise on a particular key, different sections may have different modes based on the melody (key signature) scale.



For example, for a tune in the key of D major, the first section might be D Ionian but a different section might be in A Mixolydian. Same key signature, different scales. In a different mode you concentrate on different notes. So in my example, your "strong" notes (1, 3, 5) and chords (I, ii, IV, V, vi) in D Ionian are going to be different than in A Mixolydian.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    oh so you're distinguishing it from improvising on the melody (which is the key), and improvising on the harmony (which could be different scales). first time I heard that.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    that last edit made alot of sense, thanks

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    melody follows the changes as much as it follows the chords. If you improvise around the melody you'll be using a mix of the key and the changes... and passing notes and everything else

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    @foreyez I'm saying that melody exists in a harmonic context, and that in most western music, that harmonic context includes both the pitch centre in general and also the harmony at that present time in the song. Part of what goes into a melody is choosing notes that outline that harmonic context, both of the home key, and the current harmony. So a melody might include notes that imply the chords, or it might deliberately choose notes that clash with or embellish the chords, but all of those notes will be heard in relation to both the chords and the key.

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 2





    for an example of a song that includes lots of weird harmonic movements, and has a melody that dances around these weird movements, there is desafinado by Tom Jobim. It's literally called "out of tune" and is deliberately cleverly written to have a bizarre melody that only works because it implies an underlying (complex af) harmonic structure. On the opposite side "pyramid song" by radiohead works by essentially reusing the same notes in the melody again and again and re-contextualising them with new chords. Both approaches produce interesting effects and both can be (and are) used in a solo.

    – Some_Guy
    51 mins ago













3












3








3







Yes, some jazz musicians improvise on the key, especially when they are improvising from the melody, not the chords (harmony).



The advantage of improvising on the harmony is that you minimize the clashing notes and have a ready palette of color notes that come from ornamenting the underlying chord.



But some jazz musicians improvise entirely from the melody, such as Bill Frisell. In this case, improvising on the key gives you a distinct advantage, because you can concentrate on deconstructing and reconstructing melodic fragments.



Keep in mind that in a given melody, even if it is in a particular key, there may be key centers that suggest different keys within the same tune. For example, even if you improvise on a particular key, different sections may have different modes based on the melody (key signature) scale.



For example, for a tune in the key of D major, the first section might be D Ionian but a different section might be in A Mixolydian. Same key signature, different scales. In a different mode you concentrate on different notes. So in my example, your "strong" notes (1, 3, 5) and chords (I, ii, IV, V, vi) in D Ionian are going to be different than in A Mixolydian.






share|improve this answer















Yes, some jazz musicians improvise on the key, especially when they are improvising from the melody, not the chords (harmony).



The advantage of improvising on the harmony is that you minimize the clashing notes and have a ready palette of color notes that come from ornamenting the underlying chord.



But some jazz musicians improvise entirely from the melody, such as Bill Frisell. In this case, improvising on the key gives you a distinct advantage, because you can concentrate on deconstructing and reconstructing melodic fragments.



Keep in mind that in a given melody, even if it is in a particular key, there may be key centers that suggest different keys within the same tune. For example, even if you improvise on a particular key, different sections may have different modes based on the melody (key signature) scale.



For example, for a tune in the key of D major, the first section might be D Ionian but a different section might be in A Mixolydian. Same key signature, different scales. In a different mode you concentrate on different notes. So in my example, your "strong" notes (1, 3, 5) and chords (I, ii, IV, V, vi) in D Ionian are going to be different than in A Mixolydian.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 13 mins ago

























answered 2 hours ago









propro

7,0222158




7,0222158







  • 1





    oh so you're distinguishing it from improvising on the melody (which is the key), and improvising on the harmony (which could be different scales). first time I heard that.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    that last edit made alot of sense, thanks

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    melody follows the changes as much as it follows the chords. If you improvise around the melody you'll be using a mix of the key and the changes... and passing notes and everything else

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    @foreyez I'm saying that melody exists in a harmonic context, and that in most western music, that harmonic context includes both the pitch centre in general and also the harmony at that present time in the song. Part of what goes into a melody is choosing notes that outline that harmonic context, both of the home key, and the current harmony. So a melody might include notes that imply the chords, or it might deliberately choose notes that clash with or embellish the chords, but all of those notes will be heard in relation to both the chords and the key.

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 2





    for an example of a song that includes lots of weird harmonic movements, and has a melody that dances around these weird movements, there is desafinado by Tom Jobim. It's literally called "out of tune" and is deliberately cleverly written to have a bizarre melody that only works because it implies an underlying (complex af) harmonic structure. On the opposite side "pyramid song" by radiohead works by essentially reusing the same notes in the melody again and again and re-contextualising them with new chords. Both approaches produce interesting effects and both can be (and are) used in a solo.

    – Some_Guy
    51 mins ago












  • 1





    oh so you're distinguishing it from improvising on the melody (which is the key), and improvising on the harmony (which could be different scales). first time I heard that.

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    that last edit made alot of sense, thanks

    – foreyez
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    melody follows the changes as much as it follows the chords. If you improvise around the melody you'll be using a mix of the key and the changes... and passing notes and everything else

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    @foreyez I'm saying that melody exists in a harmonic context, and that in most western music, that harmonic context includes both the pitch centre in general and also the harmony at that present time in the song. Part of what goes into a melody is choosing notes that outline that harmonic context, both of the home key, and the current harmony. So a melody might include notes that imply the chords, or it might deliberately choose notes that clash with or embellish the chords, but all of those notes will be heard in relation to both the chords and the key.

    – Some_Guy
    1 hour ago






  • 2





    for an example of a song that includes lots of weird harmonic movements, and has a melody that dances around these weird movements, there is desafinado by Tom Jobim. It's literally called "out of tune" and is deliberately cleverly written to have a bizarre melody that only works because it implies an underlying (complex af) harmonic structure. On the opposite side "pyramid song" by radiohead works by essentially reusing the same notes in the melody again and again and re-contextualising them with new chords. Both approaches produce interesting effects and both can be (and are) used in a solo.

    – Some_Guy
    51 mins ago







1




1





oh so you're distinguishing it from improvising on the melody (which is the key), and improvising on the harmony (which could be different scales). first time I heard that.

– foreyez
2 hours ago





oh so you're distinguishing it from improvising on the melody (which is the key), and improvising on the harmony (which could be different scales). first time I heard that.

– foreyez
2 hours ago




1




1





that last edit made alot of sense, thanks

– foreyez
2 hours ago





that last edit made alot of sense, thanks

– foreyez
2 hours ago




1




1





melody follows the changes as much as it follows the chords. If you improvise around the melody you'll be using a mix of the key and the changes... and passing notes and everything else

– Some_Guy
1 hour ago





melody follows the changes as much as it follows the chords. If you improvise around the melody you'll be using a mix of the key and the changes... and passing notes and everything else

– Some_Guy
1 hour ago




1




1





@foreyez I'm saying that melody exists in a harmonic context, and that in most western music, that harmonic context includes both the pitch centre in general and also the harmony at that present time in the song. Part of what goes into a melody is choosing notes that outline that harmonic context, both of the home key, and the current harmony. So a melody might include notes that imply the chords, or it might deliberately choose notes that clash with or embellish the chords, but all of those notes will be heard in relation to both the chords and the key.

– Some_Guy
1 hour ago





@foreyez I'm saying that melody exists in a harmonic context, and that in most western music, that harmonic context includes both the pitch centre in general and also the harmony at that present time in the song. Part of what goes into a melody is choosing notes that outline that harmonic context, both of the home key, and the current harmony. So a melody might include notes that imply the chords, or it might deliberately choose notes that clash with or embellish the chords, but all of those notes will be heard in relation to both the chords and the key.

– Some_Guy
1 hour ago




2




2





for an example of a song that includes lots of weird harmonic movements, and has a melody that dances around these weird movements, there is desafinado by Tom Jobim. It's literally called "out of tune" and is deliberately cleverly written to have a bizarre melody that only works because it implies an underlying (complex af) harmonic structure. On the opposite side "pyramid song" by radiohead works by essentially reusing the same notes in the melody again and again and re-contextualising them with new chords. Both approaches produce interesting effects and both can be (and are) used in a solo.

– Some_Guy
51 mins ago





for an example of a song that includes lots of weird harmonic movements, and has a melody that dances around these weird movements, there is desafinado by Tom Jobim. It's literally called "out of tune" and is deliberately cleverly written to have a bizarre melody that only works because it implies an underlying (complex af) harmonic structure. On the opposite side "pyramid song" by radiohead works by essentially reusing the same notes in the melody again and again and re-contextualising them with new chords. Both approaches produce interesting effects and both can be (and are) used in a solo.

– Some_Guy
51 mins ago

















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f82921%2fdo-jazz-musicians-improvise-on-the-parent-scale-in-addition-to-the-chord-scales%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Oświęcim Innehåll Historia | Källor | Externa länkar | Navigeringsmeny50°2′18″N 19°13′17″Ö / 50.03833°N 19.22139°Ö / 50.03833; 19.2213950°2′18″N 19°13′17″Ö / 50.03833°N 19.22139°Ö / 50.03833; 19.221393089658Nordisk familjebok, AuschwitzInsidan tro och existensJewish Community i OświęcimAuschwitz Jewish Center: MuseumAuschwitz Jewish Center

Valle di Casies Indice Geografia fisica | Origini del nome | Storia | Società | Amministrazione | Sport | Note | Bibliografia | Voci correlate | Altri progetti | Collegamenti esterni | Menu di navigazione46°46′N 12°11′E / 46.766667°N 12.183333°E46.766667; 12.183333 (Valle di Casies)46°46′N 12°11′E / 46.766667°N 12.183333°E46.766667; 12.183333 (Valle di Casies)Sito istituzionaleAstat Censimento della popolazione 2011 - Determinazione della consistenza dei tre gruppi linguistici della Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano-Alto Adige - giugno 2012Numeri e fattiValle di CasiesDato IstatTabella dei gradi/giorno dei Comuni italiani raggruppati per Regione e Provincia26 agosto 1993, n. 412Heraldry of the World: GsiesStatistiche I.StatValCasies.comWikimedia CommonsWikimedia CommonsValle di CasiesSito ufficialeValle di CasiesMM14870458910042978-6

Typsetting diagram chases (with TikZ?) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)How to define the default vertical distance between nodes?Draw edge on arcNumerical conditional within tikz keys?TikZ: Drawing an arc from an intersection to an intersectionDrawing rectilinear curves in Tikz, aka an Etch-a-Sketch drawingLine up nested tikz enviroments or how to get rid of themHow to place nodes in an absolute coordinate system in tikzCommutative diagram with curve connecting between nodesTikz with standalone: pinning tikz coordinates to page cmDrawing a Decision Diagram with Tikz and layout manager