How much of a wave function must reside inside event horizon for it to be consumed by the black hole?2019 Community Moderator Election Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara 2019 Moderator Election Q&A - QuestionnaireQuantum phenomena near black hole event horizonCan we have a black hole without a singularity?Why can apparent horizon be computed based on its local geometry?How can light enter a black hole if it cannot get out?Falling into a black hole – how can my perspective change from outside-observer to inside-observer?Can any object pass into the event horizon of a black hole and then escape?Thought experiment: ultra-fast outward push inside a black holeBlack hole merger for a distant observerFree falling into the Schwarzschild black hole: two times doubtMagnet pulling/repelling another magnet beyond the event horizon
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How much of a wave function must reside inside event horizon for it to be consumed by the black hole?
2019 Community Moderator Election
Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
2019 Moderator Election Q&A - QuestionnaireQuantum phenomena near black hole event horizonCan we have a black hole without a singularity?Why can apparent horizon be computed based on its local geometry?How can light enter a black hole if it cannot get out?Falling into a black hole – how can my perspective change from outside-observer to inside-observer?Can any object pass into the event horizon of a black hole and then escape?Thought experiment: ultra-fast outward push inside a black holeBlack hole merger for a distant observerFree falling into the Schwarzschild black hole: two times doubtMagnet pulling/repelling another magnet beyond the event horizon
$begingroup$
Related to this question in astronomy SE (https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/q/30611/10813) and in particular my attempt to answer it, I started to wonder which fraction of a waveform (for eg a photon) need to be inside event horizon in order to make its escape impossible? As far as I understand, there is infinitesimal, yet non-zero part of every photon inside event horizons even right now.
quantum-mechanics black-holes wavefunction event-horizon
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Related to this question in astronomy SE (https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/q/30611/10813) and in particular my attempt to answer it, I started to wonder which fraction of a waveform (for eg a photon) need to be inside event horizon in order to make its escape impossible? As far as I understand, there is infinitesimal, yet non-zero part of every photon inside event horizons even right now.
quantum-mechanics black-holes wavefunction event-horizon
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Related to this question in astronomy SE (https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/q/30611/10813) and in particular my attempt to answer it, I started to wonder which fraction of a waveform (for eg a photon) need to be inside event horizon in order to make its escape impossible? As far as I understand, there is infinitesimal, yet non-zero part of every photon inside event horizons even right now.
quantum-mechanics black-holes wavefunction event-horizon
$endgroup$
Related to this question in astronomy SE (https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/q/30611/10813) and in particular my attempt to answer it, I started to wonder which fraction of a waveform (for eg a photon) need to be inside event horizon in order to make its escape impossible? As far as I understand, there is infinitesimal, yet non-zero part of every photon inside event horizons even right now.
quantum-mechanics black-holes wavefunction event-horizon
quantum-mechanics black-holes wavefunction event-horizon
edited 4 hours ago
Qmechanic♦
108k122011253
108k122011253
asked 4 hours ago
tuomastuomas
1484
1484
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Introduction
First of all we need to establish what the question even means (I will restrict all formulas to non-rotating Schwarzschild black holes of mass $M$ for concreteness). There are no bound states of the electromagnetic field near a black hole, even quasi-stationary states of finite wavelength near the photon radius $r = 3GM/c^2$ will decay, a part falling into the black hole, a part to infinity.
So the question really is about scattering. It turns out that scattering of electromagnetic waves behaves differently based on wavelength. In SI units the wavelength is $lambda = c/(2pi omega)$ and this is also the localization of the photon. For intuition we can picture the photon as a wavepacket localized in a sphere of radius $lambda$. On the other hand, the typical length of the gravitational background is $GM/c^2$. The main parameter that controls the behavior of the scattering is thus the ratio of these lengths $GM/c^2/(c/(2pi omega))$. I will now switch to geometrized $G=c=1$ units and drop a $2pi$ factor, and then the ratio of the wavelength to the size of the black hole is $sim Momega$.
Large wavelengths
For $Momega to 0$ the wavelength is much larger than the black hole, "a very small part of the photon is in the black hole". In this limit it can be computed that the total cross-section of an incoming monochromatic, asymptotically planar wave is
$$sigma = left[4 pi (2 M)^2 right]frac43M^2 omega^2 + mathcalO(omega^3)$$
It is difficult to interpret the leading-order term as some kind of "overlapping volume" of the wave and the black hole, since that would scale as $M^3omega^3$. However, a sphere of radius $R$ will scatter particles with a cross-section $4 pi R^2$. Taking a wave-packet with a centroid that would be classically absorbed by a rigid sphere of radius $2M$, the factor $4 M^2 omega^2/3$ can be loosely understood as the probability it will actually be absorbed. Quite interestingly, the low-energy photon sees the black hole as a two-dimensional surface interacting with its wave-front rather than a three-dimensional volume.
Shorter wavelengths
However, this all changes with increasing frequency/decreasing wavelength. The intermediate regime is impossible to compute analytically, so I just put a plot from Crispino et al. (2007) here (I also recommend the paper for further references):
In the plot, $sigma_E^(omega = 0)$ is the low-frequency limit given above, $sigma_E$ is the total cross-section of monochromatic electromagnetic waves (computed numerically), $sigma_S$ is the same for massless scalar waves, and $sigma_O$ is the optical limit which you get from considering photons as point particles
$$sigma_O = 27 pi M^2$$
It is now easy to see that once the size of the wavepacket is comparable or smaller than the black hole, you can simply use the following approximate intuition: If the wavepacket centroid is within the photon sphere, it is going to fall inside it.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
this is within the classical electromagnetic interactions , fair enough, but one should not call them photons. Photons have to be treated quantum mechanically. and it propagates the false, imo, intuition that a photon can be partly in or out of the horizon. Individual particles are either in and absorbed, or out. It is the probability of this that can be calculated for individual photons. They do build up the electromagnetic wave, in QFT, but still they are individual measureable particles. The wave function of the photon is a wavefunction that builds a probability distribution, not space one
$endgroup$
– anna v
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
See a wavefunction of a photon here cds.cern.ch/record/944002?ln=en .
$endgroup$
– anna v
27 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are thinking of the photon as an extended classical wave, which is not correct within the standard model of particle physics. This is not correct. Photons are point like quantum mechanical particles, and quantum mechanics is all about probabilities.
A photon approaching a black hole will have a calculable probability to fall through and be captured, or join the photon sphere. This means that a distribution of photons with the same energy and boundary conditions has to be accumulated in order to check the calculation.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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$begingroup$
Introduction
First of all we need to establish what the question even means (I will restrict all formulas to non-rotating Schwarzschild black holes of mass $M$ for concreteness). There are no bound states of the electromagnetic field near a black hole, even quasi-stationary states of finite wavelength near the photon radius $r = 3GM/c^2$ will decay, a part falling into the black hole, a part to infinity.
So the question really is about scattering. It turns out that scattering of electromagnetic waves behaves differently based on wavelength. In SI units the wavelength is $lambda = c/(2pi omega)$ and this is also the localization of the photon. For intuition we can picture the photon as a wavepacket localized in a sphere of radius $lambda$. On the other hand, the typical length of the gravitational background is $GM/c^2$. The main parameter that controls the behavior of the scattering is thus the ratio of these lengths $GM/c^2/(c/(2pi omega))$. I will now switch to geometrized $G=c=1$ units and drop a $2pi$ factor, and then the ratio of the wavelength to the size of the black hole is $sim Momega$.
Large wavelengths
For $Momega to 0$ the wavelength is much larger than the black hole, "a very small part of the photon is in the black hole". In this limit it can be computed that the total cross-section of an incoming monochromatic, asymptotically planar wave is
$$sigma = left[4 pi (2 M)^2 right]frac43M^2 omega^2 + mathcalO(omega^3)$$
It is difficult to interpret the leading-order term as some kind of "overlapping volume" of the wave and the black hole, since that would scale as $M^3omega^3$. However, a sphere of radius $R$ will scatter particles with a cross-section $4 pi R^2$. Taking a wave-packet with a centroid that would be classically absorbed by a rigid sphere of radius $2M$, the factor $4 M^2 omega^2/3$ can be loosely understood as the probability it will actually be absorbed. Quite interestingly, the low-energy photon sees the black hole as a two-dimensional surface interacting with its wave-front rather than a three-dimensional volume.
Shorter wavelengths
However, this all changes with increasing frequency/decreasing wavelength. The intermediate regime is impossible to compute analytically, so I just put a plot from Crispino et al. (2007) here (I also recommend the paper for further references):
In the plot, $sigma_E^(omega = 0)$ is the low-frequency limit given above, $sigma_E$ is the total cross-section of monochromatic electromagnetic waves (computed numerically), $sigma_S$ is the same for massless scalar waves, and $sigma_O$ is the optical limit which you get from considering photons as point particles
$$sigma_O = 27 pi M^2$$
It is now easy to see that once the size of the wavepacket is comparable or smaller than the black hole, you can simply use the following approximate intuition: If the wavepacket centroid is within the photon sphere, it is going to fall inside it.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
this is within the classical electromagnetic interactions , fair enough, but one should not call them photons. Photons have to be treated quantum mechanically. and it propagates the false, imo, intuition that a photon can be partly in or out of the horizon. Individual particles are either in and absorbed, or out. It is the probability of this that can be calculated for individual photons. They do build up the electromagnetic wave, in QFT, but still they are individual measureable particles. The wave function of the photon is a wavefunction that builds a probability distribution, not space one
$endgroup$
– anna v
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
See a wavefunction of a photon here cds.cern.ch/record/944002?ln=en .
$endgroup$
– anna v
27 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Introduction
First of all we need to establish what the question even means (I will restrict all formulas to non-rotating Schwarzschild black holes of mass $M$ for concreteness). There are no bound states of the electromagnetic field near a black hole, even quasi-stationary states of finite wavelength near the photon radius $r = 3GM/c^2$ will decay, a part falling into the black hole, a part to infinity.
So the question really is about scattering. It turns out that scattering of electromagnetic waves behaves differently based on wavelength. In SI units the wavelength is $lambda = c/(2pi omega)$ and this is also the localization of the photon. For intuition we can picture the photon as a wavepacket localized in a sphere of radius $lambda$. On the other hand, the typical length of the gravitational background is $GM/c^2$. The main parameter that controls the behavior of the scattering is thus the ratio of these lengths $GM/c^2/(c/(2pi omega))$. I will now switch to geometrized $G=c=1$ units and drop a $2pi$ factor, and then the ratio of the wavelength to the size of the black hole is $sim Momega$.
Large wavelengths
For $Momega to 0$ the wavelength is much larger than the black hole, "a very small part of the photon is in the black hole". In this limit it can be computed that the total cross-section of an incoming monochromatic, asymptotically planar wave is
$$sigma = left[4 pi (2 M)^2 right]frac43M^2 omega^2 + mathcalO(omega^3)$$
It is difficult to interpret the leading-order term as some kind of "overlapping volume" of the wave and the black hole, since that would scale as $M^3omega^3$. However, a sphere of radius $R$ will scatter particles with a cross-section $4 pi R^2$. Taking a wave-packet with a centroid that would be classically absorbed by a rigid sphere of radius $2M$, the factor $4 M^2 omega^2/3$ can be loosely understood as the probability it will actually be absorbed. Quite interestingly, the low-energy photon sees the black hole as a two-dimensional surface interacting with its wave-front rather than a three-dimensional volume.
Shorter wavelengths
However, this all changes with increasing frequency/decreasing wavelength. The intermediate regime is impossible to compute analytically, so I just put a plot from Crispino et al. (2007) here (I also recommend the paper for further references):
In the plot, $sigma_E^(omega = 0)$ is the low-frequency limit given above, $sigma_E$ is the total cross-section of monochromatic electromagnetic waves (computed numerically), $sigma_S$ is the same for massless scalar waves, and $sigma_O$ is the optical limit which you get from considering photons as point particles
$$sigma_O = 27 pi M^2$$
It is now easy to see that once the size of the wavepacket is comparable or smaller than the black hole, you can simply use the following approximate intuition: If the wavepacket centroid is within the photon sphere, it is going to fall inside it.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
this is within the classical electromagnetic interactions , fair enough, but one should not call them photons. Photons have to be treated quantum mechanically. and it propagates the false, imo, intuition that a photon can be partly in or out of the horizon. Individual particles are either in and absorbed, or out. It is the probability of this that can be calculated for individual photons. They do build up the electromagnetic wave, in QFT, but still they are individual measureable particles. The wave function of the photon is a wavefunction that builds a probability distribution, not space one
$endgroup$
– anna v
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
See a wavefunction of a photon here cds.cern.ch/record/944002?ln=en .
$endgroup$
– anna v
27 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Introduction
First of all we need to establish what the question even means (I will restrict all formulas to non-rotating Schwarzschild black holes of mass $M$ for concreteness). There are no bound states of the electromagnetic field near a black hole, even quasi-stationary states of finite wavelength near the photon radius $r = 3GM/c^2$ will decay, a part falling into the black hole, a part to infinity.
So the question really is about scattering. It turns out that scattering of electromagnetic waves behaves differently based on wavelength. In SI units the wavelength is $lambda = c/(2pi omega)$ and this is also the localization of the photon. For intuition we can picture the photon as a wavepacket localized in a sphere of radius $lambda$. On the other hand, the typical length of the gravitational background is $GM/c^2$. The main parameter that controls the behavior of the scattering is thus the ratio of these lengths $GM/c^2/(c/(2pi omega))$. I will now switch to geometrized $G=c=1$ units and drop a $2pi$ factor, and then the ratio of the wavelength to the size of the black hole is $sim Momega$.
Large wavelengths
For $Momega to 0$ the wavelength is much larger than the black hole, "a very small part of the photon is in the black hole". In this limit it can be computed that the total cross-section of an incoming monochromatic, asymptotically planar wave is
$$sigma = left[4 pi (2 M)^2 right]frac43M^2 omega^2 + mathcalO(omega^3)$$
It is difficult to interpret the leading-order term as some kind of "overlapping volume" of the wave and the black hole, since that would scale as $M^3omega^3$. However, a sphere of radius $R$ will scatter particles with a cross-section $4 pi R^2$. Taking a wave-packet with a centroid that would be classically absorbed by a rigid sphere of radius $2M$, the factor $4 M^2 omega^2/3$ can be loosely understood as the probability it will actually be absorbed. Quite interestingly, the low-energy photon sees the black hole as a two-dimensional surface interacting with its wave-front rather than a three-dimensional volume.
Shorter wavelengths
However, this all changes with increasing frequency/decreasing wavelength. The intermediate regime is impossible to compute analytically, so I just put a plot from Crispino et al. (2007) here (I also recommend the paper for further references):
In the plot, $sigma_E^(omega = 0)$ is the low-frequency limit given above, $sigma_E$ is the total cross-section of monochromatic electromagnetic waves (computed numerically), $sigma_S$ is the same for massless scalar waves, and $sigma_O$ is the optical limit which you get from considering photons as point particles
$$sigma_O = 27 pi M^2$$
It is now easy to see that once the size of the wavepacket is comparable or smaller than the black hole, you can simply use the following approximate intuition: If the wavepacket centroid is within the photon sphere, it is going to fall inside it.
$endgroup$
Introduction
First of all we need to establish what the question even means (I will restrict all formulas to non-rotating Schwarzschild black holes of mass $M$ for concreteness). There are no bound states of the electromagnetic field near a black hole, even quasi-stationary states of finite wavelength near the photon radius $r = 3GM/c^2$ will decay, a part falling into the black hole, a part to infinity.
So the question really is about scattering. It turns out that scattering of electromagnetic waves behaves differently based on wavelength. In SI units the wavelength is $lambda = c/(2pi omega)$ and this is also the localization of the photon. For intuition we can picture the photon as a wavepacket localized in a sphere of radius $lambda$. On the other hand, the typical length of the gravitational background is $GM/c^2$. The main parameter that controls the behavior of the scattering is thus the ratio of these lengths $GM/c^2/(c/(2pi omega))$. I will now switch to geometrized $G=c=1$ units and drop a $2pi$ factor, and then the ratio of the wavelength to the size of the black hole is $sim Momega$.
Large wavelengths
For $Momega to 0$ the wavelength is much larger than the black hole, "a very small part of the photon is in the black hole". In this limit it can be computed that the total cross-section of an incoming monochromatic, asymptotically planar wave is
$$sigma = left[4 pi (2 M)^2 right]frac43M^2 omega^2 + mathcalO(omega^3)$$
It is difficult to interpret the leading-order term as some kind of "overlapping volume" of the wave and the black hole, since that would scale as $M^3omega^3$. However, a sphere of radius $R$ will scatter particles with a cross-section $4 pi R^2$. Taking a wave-packet with a centroid that would be classically absorbed by a rigid sphere of radius $2M$, the factor $4 M^2 omega^2/3$ can be loosely understood as the probability it will actually be absorbed. Quite interestingly, the low-energy photon sees the black hole as a two-dimensional surface interacting with its wave-front rather than a three-dimensional volume.
Shorter wavelengths
However, this all changes with increasing frequency/decreasing wavelength. The intermediate regime is impossible to compute analytically, so I just put a plot from Crispino et al. (2007) here (I also recommend the paper for further references):
In the plot, $sigma_E^(omega = 0)$ is the low-frequency limit given above, $sigma_E$ is the total cross-section of monochromatic electromagnetic waves (computed numerically), $sigma_S$ is the same for massless scalar waves, and $sigma_O$ is the optical limit which you get from considering photons as point particles
$$sigma_O = 27 pi M^2$$
It is now easy to see that once the size of the wavepacket is comparable or smaller than the black hole, you can simply use the following approximate intuition: If the wavepacket centroid is within the photon sphere, it is going to fall inside it.
answered 1 hour ago
VoidVoid
11.4k11959
11.4k11959
$begingroup$
this is within the classical electromagnetic interactions , fair enough, but one should not call them photons. Photons have to be treated quantum mechanically. and it propagates the false, imo, intuition that a photon can be partly in or out of the horizon. Individual particles are either in and absorbed, or out. It is the probability of this that can be calculated for individual photons. They do build up the electromagnetic wave, in QFT, but still they are individual measureable particles. The wave function of the photon is a wavefunction that builds a probability distribution, not space one
$endgroup$
– anna v
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
See a wavefunction of a photon here cds.cern.ch/record/944002?ln=en .
$endgroup$
– anna v
27 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
this is within the classical electromagnetic interactions , fair enough, but one should not call them photons. Photons have to be treated quantum mechanically. and it propagates the false, imo, intuition that a photon can be partly in or out of the horizon. Individual particles are either in and absorbed, or out. It is the probability of this that can be calculated for individual photons. They do build up the electromagnetic wave, in QFT, but still they are individual measureable particles. The wave function of the photon is a wavefunction that builds a probability distribution, not space one
$endgroup$
– anna v
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
See a wavefunction of a photon here cds.cern.ch/record/944002?ln=en .
$endgroup$
– anna v
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
this is within the classical electromagnetic interactions , fair enough, but one should not call them photons. Photons have to be treated quantum mechanically. and it propagates the false, imo, intuition that a photon can be partly in or out of the horizon. Individual particles are either in and absorbed, or out. It is the probability of this that can be calculated for individual photons. They do build up the electromagnetic wave, in QFT, but still they are individual measureable particles. The wave function of the photon is a wavefunction that builds a probability distribution, not space one
$endgroup$
– anna v
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
this is within the classical electromagnetic interactions , fair enough, but one should not call them photons. Photons have to be treated quantum mechanically. and it propagates the false, imo, intuition that a photon can be partly in or out of the horizon. Individual particles are either in and absorbed, or out. It is the probability of this that can be calculated for individual photons. They do build up the electromagnetic wave, in QFT, but still they are individual measureable particles. The wave function of the photon is a wavefunction that builds a probability distribution, not space one
$endgroup$
– anna v
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
See a wavefunction of a photon here cds.cern.ch/record/944002?ln=en .
$endgroup$
– anna v
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
See a wavefunction of a photon here cds.cern.ch/record/944002?ln=en .
$endgroup$
– anna v
27 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are thinking of the photon as an extended classical wave, which is not correct within the standard model of particle physics. This is not correct. Photons are point like quantum mechanical particles, and quantum mechanics is all about probabilities.
A photon approaching a black hole will have a calculable probability to fall through and be captured, or join the photon sphere. This means that a distribution of photons with the same energy and boundary conditions has to be accumulated in order to check the calculation.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are thinking of the photon as an extended classical wave, which is not correct within the standard model of particle physics. This is not correct. Photons are point like quantum mechanical particles, and quantum mechanics is all about probabilities.
A photon approaching a black hole will have a calculable probability to fall through and be captured, or join the photon sphere. This means that a distribution of photons with the same energy and boundary conditions has to be accumulated in order to check the calculation.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are thinking of the photon as an extended classical wave, which is not correct within the standard model of particle physics. This is not correct. Photons are point like quantum mechanical particles, and quantum mechanics is all about probabilities.
A photon approaching a black hole will have a calculable probability to fall through and be captured, or join the photon sphere. This means that a distribution of photons with the same energy and boundary conditions has to be accumulated in order to check the calculation.
$endgroup$
You are thinking of the photon as an extended classical wave, which is not correct within the standard model of particle physics. This is not correct. Photons are point like quantum mechanical particles, and quantum mechanics is all about probabilities.
A photon approaching a black hole will have a calculable probability to fall through and be captured, or join the photon sphere. This means that a distribution of photons with the same energy and boundary conditions has to be accumulated in order to check the calculation.
answered 3 hours ago
anna vanna v
163k8154459
163k8154459
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown