When do you need buffers/drivers on buses in a microprocessor design? Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar ManaraWhat does “load” mean and what are the different types?Why is impedance represented as a complex number?Setup and hold timeWant to apply EE knowledge — which microprocessor would you recommend?When to NOT use Totem Pole Drivers?Design 8X1 MUX with enable using three state buffers and any logic blocks you needWhy data buses should support 1024 bits, when processor are working with 64bits?How do you design processors / microprocessor [ not broad ]Why do we need the “nop” I.e. No operation instruction in microprocessor 8085?When do you use a brushless motor driver and when do you use an ESC?Are I/O buffers of ICs design to have 50ohm impedance?Altium buses between sheets on a flat designDo I really need motor drivers for a quadcopter?
Are there moral objections to a life motivated purely by money? How to sway a person from this lifestyle?
How long after the last departure shall the airport stay open for an emergency return?
Double-nominative constructions and “von”
Did the Roman Empire have penal colonies?
How to not starve gigantic beasts
Intern got a job offer for same salary than a long term team member
Is it acceptable to use working hours to read general interest books?
A strange hotel
Could moose/elk survive in the Amazon forest?
How do I check if a string is entirely made of the same substring?
How to avoid introduction cliches
How would I use different systems of magic when they are capable of the same effects?
What makes accurate emulation of old systems a difficult task?
What ability score does a Hexblade's Pact Weapon use for attack and damage when wielded by another character?
What to do with someone that cheated their way through university and a PhD program?
What *exactly* is electrical current, voltage, and resistance?
Retract an already submitted recommendation letter (written for an undergrad student)
Multiple options vs single option UI
How to keep bees out of canned beverages?
Why must Chinese maps be obfuscated?
All ASCII characters with a given bit count
Can we hide a text first in a picture and then hide that image again in one more image?
Putting Ant-Man on house arrest
What’s with the clanks at the end of the credits in Avengers: Endgame?
When do you need buffers/drivers on buses in a microprocessor design?
Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar ManaraWhat does “load” mean and what are the different types?Why is impedance represented as a complex number?Setup and hold timeWant to apply EE knowledge — which microprocessor would you recommend?When to NOT use Totem Pole Drivers?Design 8X1 MUX with enable using three state buffers and any logic blocks you needWhy data buses should support 1024 bits, when processor are working with 64bits?How do you design processors / microprocessor [ not broad ]Why do we need the “nop” I.e. No operation instruction in microprocessor 8085?When do you use a brushless motor driver and when do you use an ESC?Are I/O buffers of ICs design to have 50ohm impedance?Altium buses between sheets on a flat designDo I really need motor drivers for a quadcopter?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
I was browsing Microprocessor Interfacing Techniques and found this pharagraph:
The microprocessor's buses must connect to every memory and peripheral input-output chip in a system. All MOS microprocessors lack the output drive needed for a large system. Because of this, buffers or drivers are used to boost the driving power of the buses.
I'm not sure what the definition of a large system is, but from the (simple) microprocessor hobby system designs I've seen the usage of buffers/drivers doesn't seem to be common.
How do I know when I need to use buffers/drivers in my design? My gut feeling based on my rudimentary knowledge is that I probably need it when my signals go off the board and interface with unknown components, e.g. in a S-100 system. Is this something I can calculate?
circuit-design driver microprocessor buffer buffering
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was browsing Microprocessor Interfacing Techniques and found this pharagraph:
The microprocessor's buses must connect to every memory and peripheral input-output chip in a system. All MOS microprocessors lack the output drive needed for a large system. Because of this, buffers or drivers are used to boost the driving power of the buses.
I'm not sure what the definition of a large system is, but from the (simple) microprocessor hobby system designs I've seen the usage of buffers/drivers doesn't seem to be common.
How do I know when I need to use buffers/drivers in my design? My gut feeling based on my rudimentary knowledge is that I probably need it when my signals go off the board and interface with unknown components, e.g. in a S-100 system. Is this something I can calculate?
circuit-design driver microprocessor buffer buffering
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Yes, you can calculate it. Someone will likely write a nice answer to this. In the meantime, I suggest you read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan-out.
$endgroup$
– dim
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was browsing Microprocessor Interfacing Techniques and found this pharagraph:
The microprocessor's buses must connect to every memory and peripheral input-output chip in a system. All MOS microprocessors lack the output drive needed for a large system. Because of this, buffers or drivers are used to boost the driving power of the buses.
I'm not sure what the definition of a large system is, but from the (simple) microprocessor hobby system designs I've seen the usage of buffers/drivers doesn't seem to be common.
How do I know when I need to use buffers/drivers in my design? My gut feeling based on my rudimentary knowledge is that I probably need it when my signals go off the board and interface with unknown components, e.g. in a S-100 system. Is this something I can calculate?
circuit-design driver microprocessor buffer buffering
$endgroup$
I was browsing Microprocessor Interfacing Techniques and found this pharagraph:
The microprocessor's buses must connect to every memory and peripheral input-output chip in a system. All MOS microprocessors lack the output drive needed for a large system. Because of this, buffers or drivers are used to boost the driving power of the buses.
I'm not sure what the definition of a large system is, but from the (simple) microprocessor hobby system designs I've seen the usage of buffers/drivers doesn't seem to be common.
How do I know when I need to use buffers/drivers in my design? My gut feeling based on my rudimentary knowledge is that I probably need it when my signals go off the board and interface with unknown components, e.g. in a S-100 system. Is this something I can calculate?
circuit-design driver microprocessor buffer buffering
circuit-design driver microprocessor buffer buffering
asked 5 hours ago
tobiertobier
13515
13515
1
$begingroup$
Yes, you can calculate it. Someone will likely write a nice answer to this. In the meantime, I suggest you read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan-out.
$endgroup$
– dim
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Yes, you can calculate it. Someone will likely write a nice answer to this. In the meantime, I suggest you read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan-out.
$endgroup$
– dim
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Yes, you can calculate it. Someone will likely write a nice answer to this. In the meantime, I suggest you read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan-out.
$endgroup$
– dim
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, you can calculate it. Someone will likely write a nice answer to this. In the meantime, I suggest you read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan-out.
$endgroup$
– dim
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Large is when the processor cannot drive the various signals properly and that comes down to a number of things but primarily it is the number of devices on the bus.
They all present a load to the drivers and this is not just for the processor - during the read process where the peripheral drives the bus the load is now from the peripheral perspective. There are a couple of issues to deal with here: Fanout and capacitive load. At higher edge rates the loss tangent and skin effect also have to be considered.
Note that in modern all CMOS systems, fanout (from a pure DC current perspective) is not that much of an issue, although a significant current pulse is consumed by a CMOS input when switching but still far less than the old TTL input current.
Using a somewhat mature device that has a parallel bus (which is the main area that this issue comes up) we can look at the drive capability of the outputs:
The outputs that are expected to drive multiple inputs have a higher output current capability and in fact, that is not really an issue with modern controllers unless you are driving long runs such as backplanes (where transmission line losses - see below) come into play; what is an issue is the capacitive load.
Taking a value from the table for an address bit (The first entry) we can drive up to 24 mA and 15pF. The driver could drive more capacitance, but then the timings in the other tables will not be valid; this could easily violate setup and hold timing requirements and would require possibly significant analysis.
If there are 4 devices on the bus (not unusual) and each has a pin capacitance of 4pF (quite common for parallel interfaces) then we have 16pF loading even without considering track capacitance. For reference, a 4 thou (100 micron) track over a plane (or some return path at least) with a 4 thou core is about 1.1pF / inch. It doesn't take much track to exceed the loading specification.
Modern devices do usually come with an IBIS model so that this can be explored at system level but that requires a (usually expensive) simulation tool (typical tool linked). It is possible to analyse such interfaces by hand but it is time consuming and can be somewhat error prone.
Staying within the table limits permits a hand calculation of interface timing, at least for relatively slow edge rates. A slow edge rate is (my rule of thumb) is where the signal propagation delay on the PCB is less than 1/6 of the edge rate itself. If the edge rate is 1nsec (about 6 inches on most flavours of FR-4) then a track length of less than an inch requires little further analysis.
If we have fast edge rates, then we are in transmission line territory and the losses due to skin effect and dielectric absorption need to be considered and may well add buffering requirements.
For completeness, we can take a look at a reasonably modern parallel flash device.
Here is the table for output drive:
As can be seen, this part requires no more than 100uA of output load to meet the necessary timing. The datasheet also specifies a load capacitance of no more than 30pF.
So if you have:
Long tracks, heavy loads or fast signalling you may need to buffer various signals. Note that once you buffer one signal you will usually need to buffer all the signals in the group to maintain group timing.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("schematics", function ()
StackExchange.schematics.init();
);
, "cicuitlab");
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "135"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f435334%2fwhen-do-you-need-buffers-drivers-on-buses-in-a-microprocessor-design%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Large is when the processor cannot drive the various signals properly and that comes down to a number of things but primarily it is the number of devices on the bus.
They all present a load to the drivers and this is not just for the processor - during the read process where the peripheral drives the bus the load is now from the peripheral perspective. There are a couple of issues to deal with here: Fanout and capacitive load. At higher edge rates the loss tangent and skin effect also have to be considered.
Note that in modern all CMOS systems, fanout (from a pure DC current perspective) is not that much of an issue, although a significant current pulse is consumed by a CMOS input when switching but still far less than the old TTL input current.
Using a somewhat mature device that has a parallel bus (which is the main area that this issue comes up) we can look at the drive capability of the outputs:
The outputs that are expected to drive multiple inputs have a higher output current capability and in fact, that is not really an issue with modern controllers unless you are driving long runs such as backplanes (where transmission line losses - see below) come into play; what is an issue is the capacitive load.
Taking a value from the table for an address bit (The first entry) we can drive up to 24 mA and 15pF. The driver could drive more capacitance, but then the timings in the other tables will not be valid; this could easily violate setup and hold timing requirements and would require possibly significant analysis.
If there are 4 devices on the bus (not unusual) and each has a pin capacitance of 4pF (quite common for parallel interfaces) then we have 16pF loading even without considering track capacitance. For reference, a 4 thou (100 micron) track over a plane (or some return path at least) with a 4 thou core is about 1.1pF / inch. It doesn't take much track to exceed the loading specification.
Modern devices do usually come with an IBIS model so that this can be explored at system level but that requires a (usually expensive) simulation tool (typical tool linked). It is possible to analyse such interfaces by hand but it is time consuming and can be somewhat error prone.
Staying within the table limits permits a hand calculation of interface timing, at least for relatively slow edge rates. A slow edge rate is (my rule of thumb) is where the signal propagation delay on the PCB is less than 1/6 of the edge rate itself. If the edge rate is 1nsec (about 6 inches on most flavours of FR-4) then a track length of less than an inch requires little further analysis.
If we have fast edge rates, then we are in transmission line territory and the losses due to skin effect and dielectric absorption need to be considered and may well add buffering requirements.
For completeness, we can take a look at a reasonably modern parallel flash device.
Here is the table for output drive:
As can be seen, this part requires no more than 100uA of output load to meet the necessary timing. The datasheet also specifies a load capacitance of no more than 30pF.
So if you have:
Long tracks, heavy loads or fast signalling you may need to buffer various signals. Note that once you buffer one signal you will usually need to buffer all the signals in the group to maintain group timing.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Large is when the processor cannot drive the various signals properly and that comes down to a number of things but primarily it is the number of devices on the bus.
They all present a load to the drivers and this is not just for the processor - during the read process where the peripheral drives the bus the load is now from the peripheral perspective. There are a couple of issues to deal with here: Fanout and capacitive load. At higher edge rates the loss tangent and skin effect also have to be considered.
Note that in modern all CMOS systems, fanout (from a pure DC current perspective) is not that much of an issue, although a significant current pulse is consumed by a CMOS input when switching but still far less than the old TTL input current.
Using a somewhat mature device that has a parallel bus (which is the main area that this issue comes up) we can look at the drive capability of the outputs:
The outputs that are expected to drive multiple inputs have a higher output current capability and in fact, that is not really an issue with modern controllers unless you are driving long runs such as backplanes (where transmission line losses - see below) come into play; what is an issue is the capacitive load.
Taking a value from the table for an address bit (The first entry) we can drive up to 24 mA and 15pF. The driver could drive more capacitance, but then the timings in the other tables will not be valid; this could easily violate setup and hold timing requirements and would require possibly significant analysis.
If there are 4 devices on the bus (not unusual) and each has a pin capacitance of 4pF (quite common for parallel interfaces) then we have 16pF loading even without considering track capacitance. For reference, a 4 thou (100 micron) track over a plane (or some return path at least) with a 4 thou core is about 1.1pF / inch. It doesn't take much track to exceed the loading specification.
Modern devices do usually come with an IBIS model so that this can be explored at system level but that requires a (usually expensive) simulation tool (typical tool linked). It is possible to analyse such interfaces by hand but it is time consuming and can be somewhat error prone.
Staying within the table limits permits a hand calculation of interface timing, at least for relatively slow edge rates. A slow edge rate is (my rule of thumb) is where the signal propagation delay on the PCB is less than 1/6 of the edge rate itself. If the edge rate is 1nsec (about 6 inches on most flavours of FR-4) then a track length of less than an inch requires little further analysis.
If we have fast edge rates, then we are in transmission line territory and the losses due to skin effect and dielectric absorption need to be considered and may well add buffering requirements.
For completeness, we can take a look at a reasonably modern parallel flash device.
Here is the table for output drive:
As can be seen, this part requires no more than 100uA of output load to meet the necessary timing. The datasheet also specifies a load capacitance of no more than 30pF.
So if you have:
Long tracks, heavy loads or fast signalling you may need to buffer various signals. Note that once you buffer one signal you will usually need to buffer all the signals in the group to maintain group timing.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Large is when the processor cannot drive the various signals properly and that comes down to a number of things but primarily it is the number of devices on the bus.
They all present a load to the drivers and this is not just for the processor - during the read process where the peripheral drives the bus the load is now from the peripheral perspective. There are a couple of issues to deal with here: Fanout and capacitive load. At higher edge rates the loss tangent and skin effect also have to be considered.
Note that in modern all CMOS systems, fanout (from a pure DC current perspective) is not that much of an issue, although a significant current pulse is consumed by a CMOS input when switching but still far less than the old TTL input current.
Using a somewhat mature device that has a parallel bus (which is the main area that this issue comes up) we can look at the drive capability of the outputs:
The outputs that are expected to drive multiple inputs have a higher output current capability and in fact, that is not really an issue with modern controllers unless you are driving long runs such as backplanes (where transmission line losses - see below) come into play; what is an issue is the capacitive load.
Taking a value from the table for an address bit (The first entry) we can drive up to 24 mA and 15pF. The driver could drive more capacitance, but then the timings in the other tables will not be valid; this could easily violate setup and hold timing requirements and would require possibly significant analysis.
If there are 4 devices on the bus (not unusual) and each has a pin capacitance of 4pF (quite common for parallel interfaces) then we have 16pF loading even without considering track capacitance. For reference, a 4 thou (100 micron) track over a plane (or some return path at least) with a 4 thou core is about 1.1pF / inch. It doesn't take much track to exceed the loading specification.
Modern devices do usually come with an IBIS model so that this can be explored at system level but that requires a (usually expensive) simulation tool (typical tool linked). It is possible to analyse such interfaces by hand but it is time consuming and can be somewhat error prone.
Staying within the table limits permits a hand calculation of interface timing, at least for relatively slow edge rates. A slow edge rate is (my rule of thumb) is where the signal propagation delay on the PCB is less than 1/6 of the edge rate itself. If the edge rate is 1nsec (about 6 inches on most flavours of FR-4) then a track length of less than an inch requires little further analysis.
If we have fast edge rates, then we are in transmission line territory and the losses due to skin effect and dielectric absorption need to be considered and may well add buffering requirements.
For completeness, we can take a look at a reasonably modern parallel flash device.
Here is the table for output drive:
As can be seen, this part requires no more than 100uA of output load to meet the necessary timing. The datasheet also specifies a load capacitance of no more than 30pF.
So if you have:
Long tracks, heavy loads or fast signalling you may need to buffer various signals. Note that once you buffer one signal you will usually need to buffer all the signals in the group to maintain group timing.
$endgroup$
Large is when the processor cannot drive the various signals properly and that comes down to a number of things but primarily it is the number of devices on the bus.
They all present a load to the drivers and this is not just for the processor - during the read process where the peripheral drives the bus the load is now from the peripheral perspective. There are a couple of issues to deal with here: Fanout and capacitive load. At higher edge rates the loss tangent and skin effect also have to be considered.
Note that in modern all CMOS systems, fanout (from a pure DC current perspective) is not that much of an issue, although a significant current pulse is consumed by a CMOS input when switching but still far less than the old TTL input current.
Using a somewhat mature device that has a parallel bus (which is the main area that this issue comes up) we can look at the drive capability of the outputs:
The outputs that are expected to drive multiple inputs have a higher output current capability and in fact, that is not really an issue with modern controllers unless you are driving long runs such as backplanes (where transmission line losses - see below) come into play; what is an issue is the capacitive load.
Taking a value from the table for an address bit (The first entry) we can drive up to 24 mA and 15pF. The driver could drive more capacitance, but then the timings in the other tables will not be valid; this could easily violate setup and hold timing requirements and would require possibly significant analysis.
If there are 4 devices on the bus (not unusual) and each has a pin capacitance of 4pF (quite common for parallel interfaces) then we have 16pF loading even without considering track capacitance. For reference, a 4 thou (100 micron) track over a plane (or some return path at least) with a 4 thou core is about 1.1pF / inch. It doesn't take much track to exceed the loading specification.
Modern devices do usually come with an IBIS model so that this can be explored at system level but that requires a (usually expensive) simulation tool (typical tool linked). It is possible to analyse such interfaces by hand but it is time consuming and can be somewhat error prone.
Staying within the table limits permits a hand calculation of interface timing, at least for relatively slow edge rates. A slow edge rate is (my rule of thumb) is where the signal propagation delay on the PCB is less than 1/6 of the edge rate itself. If the edge rate is 1nsec (about 6 inches on most flavours of FR-4) then a track length of less than an inch requires little further analysis.
If we have fast edge rates, then we are in transmission line territory and the losses due to skin effect and dielectric absorption need to be considered and may well add buffering requirements.
For completeness, we can take a look at a reasonably modern parallel flash device.
Here is the table for output drive:
As can be seen, this part requires no more than 100uA of output load to meet the necessary timing. The datasheet also specifies a load capacitance of no more than 30pF.
So if you have:
Long tracks, heavy loads or fast signalling you may need to buffer various signals. Note that once you buffer one signal you will usually need to buffer all the signals in the group to maintain group timing.
answered 1 hour ago
Peter SmithPeter Smith
15.4k11241
15.4k11241
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f435334%2fwhen-do-you-need-buffers-drivers-on-buses-in-a-microprocessor-design%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
1
$begingroup$
Yes, you can calculate it. Someone will likely write a nice answer to this. In the meantime, I suggest you read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan-out.
$endgroup$
– dim
5 hours ago