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Why does Arg'[1. + I] return -0.5?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?NDSolve with Piecewise gives the incorrect answer randomlyWhy is NHoldFirst not propagated to symbolic derivatives?Numerical errors/inaccuracies in ProductLogWhy does this integral have a complex component?Why is (-1.)^2. a complex numberWhy does FindMinimum return 'The function value Null is not a real number'?Funny behavior when integratingWhy am I getting RootSearch::numb:Magnitude is returning a complex number if I precede it with Complex Expand?How to take derivative of the argument of an interpolating function
$begingroup$
From the document we know that
Arg[z]
gives the gives the argument of the complex numberz
.
Then how about Arg'[z]
? This seems to be meaningless, but Mathematica returns something if z
is a non-exact number, for example
Arg'[1. + I]
(* -0.5 *)
So my question is:
How is the numeric value of
Arg'[z]
defined?Why does
Arg'
behave like this? What's the potential usage of this behavior?
calculus-and-analysis numerics complex implementation-details
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From the document we know that
Arg[z]
gives the gives the argument of the complex numberz
.
Then how about Arg'[z]
? This seems to be meaningless, but Mathematica returns something if z
is a non-exact number, for example
Arg'[1. + I]
(* -0.5 *)
So my question is:
How is the numeric value of
Arg'[z]
defined?Why does
Arg'
behave like this? What's the potential usage of this behavior?
calculus-and-analysis numerics complex implementation-details
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This can shed some light:Trace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It is impossible to understand what the output fromTrace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
mean. May be numerics gone mad or something :) so just change1.0
to1
in the example given and thenArg
will no longer do what you show.
$endgroup$
– Nasser
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Kuba Oh blinding light…
$endgroup$
– xzczd
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser and xzczd it looks like it calculates derivative value from set of points f orArg
, but I wasn't paying too much attention.
$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From the document we know that
Arg[z]
gives the gives the argument of the complex numberz
.
Then how about Arg'[z]
? This seems to be meaningless, but Mathematica returns something if z
is a non-exact number, for example
Arg'[1. + I]
(* -0.5 *)
So my question is:
How is the numeric value of
Arg'[z]
defined?Why does
Arg'
behave like this? What's the potential usage of this behavior?
calculus-and-analysis numerics complex implementation-details
$endgroup$
From the document we know that
Arg[z]
gives the gives the argument of the complex numberz
.
Then how about Arg'[z]
? This seems to be meaningless, but Mathematica returns something if z
is a non-exact number, for example
Arg'[1. + I]
(* -0.5 *)
So my question is:
How is the numeric value of
Arg'[z]
defined?Why does
Arg'
behave like this? What's the potential usage of this behavior?
calculus-and-analysis numerics complex implementation-details
calculus-and-analysis numerics complex implementation-details
edited 4 hours ago
xzczd
asked 4 hours ago
xzczdxzczd
27.9k576258
27.9k576258
$begingroup$
This can shed some light:Trace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It is impossible to understand what the output fromTrace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
mean. May be numerics gone mad or something :) so just change1.0
to1
in the example given and thenArg
will no longer do what you show.
$endgroup$
– Nasser
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Kuba Oh blinding light…
$endgroup$
– xzczd
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser and xzczd it looks like it calculates derivative value from set of points f orArg
, but I wasn't paying too much attention.
$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This can shed some light:Trace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It is impossible to understand what the output fromTrace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
mean. May be numerics gone mad or something :) so just change1.0
to1
in the example given and thenArg
will no longer do what you show.
$endgroup$
– Nasser
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Kuba Oh blinding light…
$endgroup$
– xzczd
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser and xzczd it looks like it calculates derivative value from set of points f orArg
, but I wasn't paying too much attention.
$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This can shed some light:
Trace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This can shed some light:
Trace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It is impossible to understand what the output from
Trace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
mean. May be numerics gone mad or something :) so just change 1.0
to 1
in the example given and then Arg
will no longer do what you show.$endgroup$
– Nasser
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It is impossible to understand what the output from
Trace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
mean. May be numerics gone mad or something :) so just change 1.0
to 1
in the example given and then Arg
will no longer do what you show.$endgroup$
– Nasser
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Kuba Oh blinding light…
$endgroup$
– xzczd
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Kuba Oh blinding light…
$endgroup$
– xzczd
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser and xzczd it looks like it calculates derivative value from set of points f or
Arg
, but I wasn't paying too much attention.$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser and xzczd it looks like it calculates derivative value from set of points f or
Arg
, but I wasn't paying too much attention.$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The internal Trace[]
Kuba advises shows calculations consistent with the numeric approximation of the partial derivative with respect to the real part:
D[ComplexExpand[Arg[x + I y], TargetFunctions -> Re, Im], x] /.
x -> 1 /. y -> 1
(* -(1/2) *)
This is what Mathematica does with the derivative of a numeric function with approximate input.
Other examples:
ClearAll[f, g];
f[x_?NumericQ] := Re[x]^2;
g[x_?NumericQ] := Im[x]^2;
f'[1. + I]
g'[1. + I]
(*
1.999999999999995`
-2.7506672371246275`*^-15
*)
It seems like the wrong way to evalutate Derivative
.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Funny,Abs'[2. + I]
returns the input.
$endgroup$
– xzczd
54 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The definition of the argument is $arg(z)=textIm(ln(z))$. Its partial derivative with respect to $z$ would then be
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z=
fracpartialpartial zfracln(z)-ln(z^*)2i
= -fraci2z.
$$
What you see looks like twice the real part of this expression:
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)]]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
I don't know in which sense this is the "correct" answer. It could be that what is actually calculated is not the partial derivative with respect to $z$, but rather the sum of partial derivatives
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z
+fracpartial arg(z)partial z^*
= -fraci2z+fraci2z^*
= -fractextIm(z)
$$
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)], -Im[z]/Abs[z]^2]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Er… how is derivative of $ln(z^*)$ defined here?
$endgroup$
– xzczd
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Any idea why thenWith[z = 1.0 + I, Arg'[z]]
not same asWith[z = 1 + I, Arg'[z]]
? Should not these give same result?
$endgroup$
– Nasser
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@xzczd $z$ and $z^*$ are independent variables in complex analysis, so $partial z^*/partial z=0$ etc.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser they do give the same result when you applyN
:Arg'[1 + I] // N
also gives-0.5
.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Funny Answer,
Just ignore the method it uses to calculate and use your own method of calculation based on the result..
The reason for using this is to extended divided by two.
Arg'[1./2]
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The internal Trace[]
Kuba advises shows calculations consistent with the numeric approximation of the partial derivative with respect to the real part:
D[ComplexExpand[Arg[x + I y], TargetFunctions -> Re, Im], x] /.
x -> 1 /. y -> 1
(* -(1/2) *)
This is what Mathematica does with the derivative of a numeric function with approximate input.
Other examples:
ClearAll[f, g];
f[x_?NumericQ] := Re[x]^2;
g[x_?NumericQ] := Im[x]^2;
f'[1. + I]
g'[1. + I]
(*
1.999999999999995`
-2.7506672371246275`*^-15
*)
It seems like the wrong way to evalutate Derivative
.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Funny,Abs'[2. + I]
returns the input.
$endgroup$
– xzczd
54 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The internal Trace[]
Kuba advises shows calculations consistent with the numeric approximation of the partial derivative with respect to the real part:
D[ComplexExpand[Arg[x + I y], TargetFunctions -> Re, Im], x] /.
x -> 1 /. y -> 1
(* -(1/2) *)
This is what Mathematica does with the derivative of a numeric function with approximate input.
Other examples:
ClearAll[f, g];
f[x_?NumericQ] := Re[x]^2;
g[x_?NumericQ] := Im[x]^2;
f'[1. + I]
g'[1. + I]
(*
1.999999999999995`
-2.7506672371246275`*^-15
*)
It seems like the wrong way to evalutate Derivative
.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Funny,Abs'[2. + I]
returns the input.
$endgroup$
– xzczd
54 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The internal Trace[]
Kuba advises shows calculations consistent with the numeric approximation of the partial derivative with respect to the real part:
D[ComplexExpand[Arg[x + I y], TargetFunctions -> Re, Im], x] /.
x -> 1 /. y -> 1
(* -(1/2) *)
This is what Mathematica does with the derivative of a numeric function with approximate input.
Other examples:
ClearAll[f, g];
f[x_?NumericQ] := Re[x]^2;
g[x_?NumericQ] := Im[x]^2;
f'[1. + I]
g'[1. + I]
(*
1.999999999999995`
-2.7506672371246275`*^-15
*)
It seems like the wrong way to evalutate Derivative
.
$endgroup$
The internal Trace[]
Kuba advises shows calculations consistent with the numeric approximation of the partial derivative with respect to the real part:
D[ComplexExpand[Arg[x + I y], TargetFunctions -> Re, Im], x] /.
x -> 1 /. y -> 1
(* -(1/2) *)
This is what Mathematica does with the derivative of a numeric function with approximate input.
Other examples:
ClearAll[f, g];
f[x_?NumericQ] := Re[x]^2;
g[x_?NumericQ] := Im[x]^2;
f'[1. + I]
g'[1. + I]
(*
1.999999999999995`
-2.7506672371246275`*^-15
*)
It seems like the wrong way to evalutate Derivative
.
answered 1 hour ago
Michael E2Michael E2
151k12203483
151k12203483
$begingroup$
Funny,Abs'[2. + I]
returns the input.
$endgroup$
– xzczd
54 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Funny,Abs'[2. + I]
returns the input.
$endgroup$
– xzczd
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
Funny,
Abs'[2. + I]
returns the input.$endgroup$
– xzczd
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
Funny,
Abs'[2. + I]
returns the input.$endgroup$
– xzczd
54 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The definition of the argument is $arg(z)=textIm(ln(z))$. Its partial derivative with respect to $z$ would then be
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z=
fracpartialpartial zfracln(z)-ln(z^*)2i
= -fraci2z.
$$
What you see looks like twice the real part of this expression:
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)]]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
I don't know in which sense this is the "correct" answer. It could be that what is actually calculated is not the partial derivative with respect to $z$, but rather the sum of partial derivatives
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z
+fracpartial arg(z)partial z^*
= -fraci2z+fraci2z^*
= -fractextIm(z)
$$
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)], -Im[z]/Abs[z]^2]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Er… how is derivative of $ln(z^*)$ defined here?
$endgroup$
– xzczd
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Any idea why thenWith[z = 1.0 + I, Arg'[z]]
not same asWith[z = 1 + I, Arg'[z]]
? Should not these give same result?
$endgroup$
– Nasser
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@xzczd $z$ and $z^*$ are independent variables in complex analysis, so $partial z^*/partial z=0$ etc.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser they do give the same result when you applyN
:Arg'[1 + I] // N
also gives-0.5
.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The definition of the argument is $arg(z)=textIm(ln(z))$. Its partial derivative with respect to $z$ would then be
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z=
fracpartialpartial zfracln(z)-ln(z^*)2i
= -fraci2z.
$$
What you see looks like twice the real part of this expression:
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)]]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
I don't know in which sense this is the "correct" answer. It could be that what is actually calculated is not the partial derivative with respect to $z$, but rather the sum of partial derivatives
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z
+fracpartial arg(z)partial z^*
= -fraci2z+fraci2z^*
= -fractextIm(z)
$$
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)], -Im[z]/Abs[z]^2]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Er… how is derivative of $ln(z^*)$ defined here?
$endgroup$
– xzczd
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Any idea why thenWith[z = 1.0 + I, Arg'[z]]
not same asWith[z = 1 + I, Arg'[z]]
? Should not these give same result?
$endgroup$
– Nasser
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@xzczd $z$ and $z^*$ are independent variables in complex analysis, so $partial z^*/partial z=0$ etc.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser they do give the same result when you applyN
:Arg'[1 + I] // N
also gives-0.5
.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The definition of the argument is $arg(z)=textIm(ln(z))$. Its partial derivative with respect to $z$ would then be
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z=
fracpartialpartial zfracln(z)-ln(z^*)2i
= -fraci2z.
$$
What you see looks like twice the real part of this expression:
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)]]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
I don't know in which sense this is the "correct" answer. It could be that what is actually calculated is not the partial derivative with respect to $z$, but rather the sum of partial derivatives
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z
+fracpartial arg(z)partial z^*
= -fraci2z+fraci2z^*
= -fractextIm(z)
$$
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)], -Im[z]/Abs[z]^2]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
$endgroup$
The definition of the argument is $arg(z)=textIm(ln(z))$. Its partial derivative with respect to $z$ would then be
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z=
fracpartialpartial zfracln(z)-ln(z^*)2i
= -fraci2z.
$$
What you see looks like twice the real part of this expression:
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)]]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
I don't know in which sense this is the "correct" answer. It could be that what is actually calculated is not the partial derivative with respect to $z$, but rather the sum of partial derivatives
$$
fracpartial arg(z)partial z
+fracpartial arg(z)partial z^*
= -fraci2z+fraci2z^*
= -fractextIm(z)
$$
With[z = 2. + 5 I,
Arg'[z], 2Re[-I/(2z)], -Im[z]/Abs[z]^2]
(* -0.172414, -0.172414, -0.172414 *)
edited 3 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
RomanRoman
6,06511132
6,06511132
$begingroup$
Er… how is derivative of $ln(z^*)$ defined here?
$endgroup$
– xzczd
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Any idea why thenWith[z = 1.0 + I, Arg'[z]]
not same asWith[z = 1 + I, Arg'[z]]
? Should not these give same result?
$endgroup$
– Nasser
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@xzczd $z$ and $z^*$ are independent variables in complex analysis, so $partial z^*/partial z=0$ etc.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser they do give the same result when you applyN
:Arg'[1 + I] // N
also gives-0.5
.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Er… how is derivative of $ln(z^*)$ defined here?
$endgroup$
– xzczd
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Any idea why thenWith[z = 1.0 + I, Arg'[z]]
not same asWith[z = 1 + I, Arg'[z]]
? Should not these give same result?
$endgroup$
– Nasser
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@xzczd $z$ and $z^*$ are independent variables in complex analysis, so $partial z^*/partial z=0$ etc.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser they do give the same result when you applyN
:Arg'[1 + I] // N
also gives-0.5
.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Er… how is derivative of $ln(z^*)$ defined here?
$endgroup$
– xzczd
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Er… how is derivative of $ln(z^*)$ defined here?
$endgroup$
– xzczd
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Any idea why then
With[z = 1.0 + I, Arg'[z]]
not same as With[z = 1 + I, Arg'[z]]
? Should not these give same result?$endgroup$
– Nasser
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Any idea why then
With[z = 1.0 + I, Arg'[z]]
not same as With[z = 1 + I, Arg'[z]]
? Should not these give same result?$endgroup$
– Nasser
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@xzczd $z$ and $z^*$ are independent variables in complex analysis, so $partial z^*/partial z=0$ etc.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@xzczd $z$ and $z^*$ are independent variables in complex analysis, so $partial z^*/partial z=0$ etc.
$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser they do give the same result when you apply
N
: Arg'[1 + I] // N
also gives -0.5
.$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser they do give the same result when you apply
N
: Arg'[1 + I] // N
also gives -0.5
.$endgroup$
– Roman
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Funny Answer,
Just ignore the method it uses to calculate and use your own method of calculation based on the result..
The reason for using this is to extended divided by two.
Arg'[1./2]
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Funny Answer,
Just ignore the method it uses to calculate and use your own method of calculation based on the result..
The reason for using this is to extended divided by two.
Arg'[1./2]
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Funny Answer,
Just ignore the method it uses to calculate and use your own method of calculation based on the result..
The reason for using this is to extended divided by two.
Arg'[1./2]
New contributor
$endgroup$
Funny Answer,
Just ignore the method it uses to calculate and use your own method of calculation based on the result..
The reason for using this is to extended divided by two.
Arg'[1./2]
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answered 19 mins ago
ZilliniumZillinium
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$begingroup$
This can shed some light:
Trace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
It is impossible to understand what the output from
Trace[ Arg'[1. + I], TraceInternal -> True ]
mean. May be numerics gone mad or something :) so just change1.0
to1
in the example given and thenArg
will no longer do what you show.$endgroup$
– Nasser
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Kuba Oh blinding light…
$endgroup$
– xzczd
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nasser and xzczd it looks like it calculates derivative value from set of points f or
Arg
, but I wasn't paying too much attention.$endgroup$
– Kuba♦
4 hours ago