Air bladders in bat-like skin wings for better lift? Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar ManaraNew blog post: When Gods FearCould you make Bat wings shaped like the different kinds of Bird wings?What would humans wings need to be like to fly?Using birds to lift a cabin to the airWing-design for a Bird that Needs No LiftWhat would humans wings need to be like to fly?A gas lighter than air allowing for easier humanoid flightIs there a reason a flying species can't use lighter than air gas to help provide lift?Mechanical wings for humansCould you make Bat wings shaped like the different kinds of Bird wings?How to make my humans more cold-resistant?What would the changes necessary for powered flight using rib-derived “wings” look like?Mistaken For Wings?

What makes accurate emulation of old systems a difficult task?

Implementing 3DES algorithm in Java: is my code secure?

All ASCII characters with a given bit count

What is it called when you ride around on your front wheel?

Tikz positioning above circle exact alignment

What to do with someone that cheated their way through university and a PhD program?

Which big number is bigger?

What does a straight horizontal line above a few notes, after a changed tempo mean?

"Rubric" as meaning "signature" or "personal mark" -- is this accepted usage?

Map material from china not allowed to leave the country

Older movie/show about humans on derelict alien warship which refuels by passing through a star

How much cash can I safely carry into the USA and avoid civil forfeiture?

Is it possible to cast 2x Final Payment while sacrificing just one creature?

A Paper Record is What I Hamper

What is the best way to deal with NPC-NPC combat?

Why didn't the Space Shuttle bounce back into space as many times as possible so as to lose a lot of kinetic energy up there?

Why doesn't the standard consider a template constructor as a copy constructor?

How to find if a column is referenced in a computed column?

Scheduling based problem

Why must Chinese maps be obfuscated?

Has a Nobel Peace laureate ever been accused of war crimes?

My admission is revoked after accepting the admission offer

Mistake in years of experience in resume?

My bank got bought out, am I now going to have to start filing tax returns in a different state?



Air bladders in bat-like skin wings for better lift?



Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
New blog post: When Gods FearCould you make Bat wings shaped like the different kinds of Bird wings?What would humans wings need to be like to fly?Using birds to lift a cabin to the airWing-design for a Bird that Needs No LiftWhat would humans wings need to be like to fly?A gas lighter than air allowing for easier humanoid flightIs there a reason a flying species can't use lighter than air gas to help provide lift?Mechanical wings for humansCould you make Bat wings shaped like the different kinds of Bird wings?How to make my humans more cold-resistant?What would the changes necessary for powered flight using rib-derived “wings” look like?Mistaken For Wings?










4












$begingroup$


Answers to this question note that human (and by extension mammal) wings would use naked skin instead of feathers, as we see on bats. However, with feathers, birds can have wings with shaped more like those of an aircraft (often with bell-shaped spanload, it seems), which is more efficient than a flat surface for generating lift, without adding as much weight as would flesh. In comparison, bat wings are very flat.



Would having inflatable air bladders under the skin, in order to give a similar shape, be beneficial for generating lift? Or would the gains be too marginal to be worth it for a flying mammal?



Some answers to this question note that bat wings are more agile, at the cost of being less efficient for generating lift. The idea here would be to compromise differently and have better gliding wings.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    4












    $begingroup$


    Answers to this question note that human (and by extension mammal) wings would use naked skin instead of feathers, as we see on bats. However, with feathers, birds can have wings with shaped more like those of an aircraft (often with bell-shaped spanload, it seems), which is more efficient than a flat surface for generating lift, without adding as much weight as would flesh. In comparison, bat wings are very flat.



    Would having inflatable air bladders under the skin, in order to give a similar shape, be beneficial for generating lift? Or would the gains be too marginal to be worth it for a flying mammal?



    Some answers to this question note that bat wings are more agile, at the cost of being less efficient for generating lift. The idea here would be to compromise differently and have better gliding wings.










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      4












      4








      4





      $begingroup$


      Answers to this question note that human (and by extension mammal) wings would use naked skin instead of feathers, as we see on bats. However, with feathers, birds can have wings with shaped more like those of an aircraft (often with bell-shaped spanload, it seems), which is more efficient than a flat surface for generating lift, without adding as much weight as would flesh. In comparison, bat wings are very flat.



      Would having inflatable air bladders under the skin, in order to give a similar shape, be beneficial for generating lift? Or would the gains be too marginal to be worth it for a flying mammal?



      Some answers to this question note that bat wings are more agile, at the cost of being less efficient for generating lift. The idea here would be to compromise differently and have better gliding wings.










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Answers to this question note that human (and by extension mammal) wings would use naked skin instead of feathers, as we see on bats. However, with feathers, birds can have wings with shaped more like those of an aircraft (often with bell-shaped spanload, it seems), which is more efficient than a flat surface for generating lift, without adding as much weight as would flesh. In comparison, bat wings are very flat.



      Would having inflatable air bladders under the skin, in order to give a similar shape, be beneficial for generating lift? Or would the gains be too marginal to be worth it for a flying mammal?



      Some answers to this question note that bat wings are more agile, at the cost of being less efficient for generating lift. The idea here would be to compromise differently and have better gliding wings.







      biology flight






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 4 hours ago









      Nyakouai

      2,26811331




      2,26811331










      asked 4 hours ago









      EthEth

      3,0421822




      3,0421822




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          7












          $begingroup$

          It would have benefits to lift, but they'd be very susceptible to damage.



          Adding air-filled bladders to a wing to make it more aerodynamic would be a lightweight solution to adding lift compared to adding supporting structures so there would be benefit to it.



          Issue 1: damage



          However, skin wings are already more susceptible to damage than feathered ones. The loss of even a number of individual feathers does not necessarily ground a bird, but damage to a bat's wing is easily exacerbated into a full tear through use. As a response to this, bat wings have evolved to be some of the fastest healing mammalian tissue structures.



          If you are relying on the aerodynamic shape of an air-filled bladder on a wing to generate enough lift to fly, then damage to that structure is pretty risky. If a bladder becomes even slightly punctured it will deflate and ruin your aerodynamics. You may still be able to fly using a deflated wing, but evolution tends towards efficiency so it is more likely that any small injury would result in the animal being grounded until it heals and inflates again.



          This doesn't necessarily mean that the trade-off isn't worth it, but the benefits are looking pretty thin.



          Issue 2: alternative solutions



          The usual solution to gaining more lift is to evolve bigger wings. Either longer or broader, depending on your flight strategy. There are drawbacks to this (higher wing-loadings, lower manoeuvrability, and more weight), but it is also quite an easy thing to evolve compared to novel structures within a wing.



          Smaller wings are better for manoeuvrability and lighter weight. They tend to be selected for in environments where animals have to fly around hazards like branches or predators.



          The issue we have with bladder-wings is that what we're after is high-lift small wings. Unfortunately, as these are typically a response to hazardous environments, a solution that is very susceptible to damage is not a great solution.



          Add together inefficient solution and difficult to evolve and it's not hard to see why it hasn't occurred in nature thus far.



          So, how can we make this plausible?



          Perhaps, what we want is a situation where simply increasing wingspan isn't enough. We also want a situation where lift is at a premium over manoeuvrability, and risk of damage is low.



          Maybe your bladder-wing bats are pelagic sea gliders like albatrosses.



          If you're big enough, there's not a great deal out above the open ocean that will damage your wings, and lift is most certainly at a premium if you want to fly vast distances. There have been pterasaurs with very large wingspans so it is possible to have very big skin wings.



          So, they'd probably just evolve really big wings like pterasaurs and albatrosses. Drat.



          Hang on...we might be able to get this to work...



          There are some key trade-offs for animals that both fly and swim. The one we're interested in is the relative wing-loadings of animals that use their wings to swim.



          As water is so much more dense than air, you need a lot stouter wings to swim well in it. There's a trade-off between ability to swim underwater and fly in the air. Puffins have tiny wings and very inefficient flight in order to be able to swim very well underwater. Flightless penguins are the logical extreme of this.



          If an albatross flapped its massive wings underwater it would break its bones. As such it's unable to dive, and is relegated to a feeding strategy where it attracts squid to the surface at night. It works (evidently), but there's a lot of resources albatrosses can't exploit.



          This sets up the right set of pressures to favour high-lift short wings. If your bladder-bats are able to deflate their bladders to decrease their buoyancy, they might be able to travel vast distances at sea efficiently and dive well enough to hunt beneath the surface of the water. They also avoid the trade-off of water-repellent feathers trapping air and increasing buoyancy so might be better divers than birds.



          They might actually be able to compete well enough with albatrosses (and other diving pelagic birds like shearwaters) to plausibly survive in the wild!



          tl;dr The only plausible set of environmental pressures I can see for bladder-winged bats comes from long-distance flying diving pelagic sea-birds.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$








          • 2




            $begingroup$
            Couldn't the damage issue be mitigated by using many smal bladders instead of one big one? After all, that is how we deal with the problem on airships.
            $endgroup$
            – TheDyingOfLight
            2 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @TheDyingOfLight It could, and they'd likely have a number of small bladders for precisely that reason. It's subject to diminishing returns though. The more separate bladders you have, the more supporting structure you have which eats into your weight reduction (which is the only real reason to have gas-sacks instead of tissue). I suspect there's a happy medium somewhere between the two extremes.
            $endgroup$
            – Ynneadwraith
            2 hours ago


















          3












          $begingroup$

          At the scale of a bat (normally not much bigger than a house mouse, maximum about the weight of a large rat) the cross section of the airfoil makes much less difference that it would with something that weighs, for instance, what a large hawk or albatross does.



          In fact, the bat's thin wing has a much thicker bone "spar" near the leading edge, and a deeply cambered surface behind; this is actually a very efficient shape for a small (low Reynolds number), low-loading surface. To compare, look at the difference between the wings of small hand launched gliders (typical span 30-45 cm, weight comparable to a small bat) and those of larger model sailplanes (spans 1.5 to 3 m, weight 1-5 kg).



          The hand launch gliders have very thin wings, and in fact often little camber; this latter is because they need to fly at very high speed when launched, but the designs that have used built-up wings to add thickness have not generally done enough better in competition to take over from the thin solid sheet wing construction. It's also common for indoor hand launch gliders to have flexible cambered surfaces -- the camber "blows flat" during the high speed launch, then flexes back like a flap to increase lift and change stability during the glide. In final configuration, the result is much like the inner panel of a bat's wing (inboard of the "pinkie finger" bone).



          Therefore, in considerable of the relative fragility of an air bladder (as mentioned in another answer) and the questionable aerodynamic advantage of a thicker wing over a thin, cambered one in this flight regime, it seems unlikely that such a feature would provide enough advantage to evolve naturally.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













            Your Answer








            StackExchange.ready(function()
            var channelOptions =
            tags: "".split(" "),
            id: "579"
            ;
            initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

            StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
            // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
            if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
            StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
            createEditor();
            );

            else
            createEditor();

            );

            function createEditor()
            StackExchange.prepareEditor(
            heartbeatType: 'answer',
            autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
            convertImagesToLinks: false,
            noModals: true,
            showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
            reputationToPostImages: null,
            bindNavPrevention: true,
            postfix: "",
            imageUploader:
            brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
            contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
            allowUrls: true
            ,
            noCode: true, onDemand: true,
            discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
            ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
            );



            );













            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f145722%2fair-bladders-in-bat-like-skin-wings-for-better-lift%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown

























            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            7












            $begingroup$

            It would have benefits to lift, but they'd be very susceptible to damage.



            Adding air-filled bladders to a wing to make it more aerodynamic would be a lightweight solution to adding lift compared to adding supporting structures so there would be benefit to it.



            Issue 1: damage



            However, skin wings are already more susceptible to damage than feathered ones. The loss of even a number of individual feathers does not necessarily ground a bird, but damage to a bat's wing is easily exacerbated into a full tear through use. As a response to this, bat wings have evolved to be some of the fastest healing mammalian tissue structures.



            If you are relying on the aerodynamic shape of an air-filled bladder on a wing to generate enough lift to fly, then damage to that structure is pretty risky. If a bladder becomes even slightly punctured it will deflate and ruin your aerodynamics. You may still be able to fly using a deflated wing, but evolution tends towards efficiency so it is more likely that any small injury would result in the animal being grounded until it heals and inflates again.



            This doesn't necessarily mean that the trade-off isn't worth it, but the benefits are looking pretty thin.



            Issue 2: alternative solutions



            The usual solution to gaining more lift is to evolve bigger wings. Either longer or broader, depending on your flight strategy. There are drawbacks to this (higher wing-loadings, lower manoeuvrability, and more weight), but it is also quite an easy thing to evolve compared to novel structures within a wing.



            Smaller wings are better for manoeuvrability and lighter weight. They tend to be selected for in environments where animals have to fly around hazards like branches or predators.



            The issue we have with bladder-wings is that what we're after is high-lift small wings. Unfortunately, as these are typically a response to hazardous environments, a solution that is very susceptible to damage is not a great solution.



            Add together inefficient solution and difficult to evolve and it's not hard to see why it hasn't occurred in nature thus far.



            So, how can we make this plausible?



            Perhaps, what we want is a situation where simply increasing wingspan isn't enough. We also want a situation where lift is at a premium over manoeuvrability, and risk of damage is low.



            Maybe your bladder-wing bats are pelagic sea gliders like albatrosses.



            If you're big enough, there's not a great deal out above the open ocean that will damage your wings, and lift is most certainly at a premium if you want to fly vast distances. There have been pterasaurs with very large wingspans so it is possible to have very big skin wings.



            So, they'd probably just evolve really big wings like pterasaurs and albatrosses. Drat.



            Hang on...we might be able to get this to work...



            There are some key trade-offs for animals that both fly and swim. The one we're interested in is the relative wing-loadings of animals that use their wings to swim.



            As water is so much more dense than air, you need a lot stouter wings to swim well in it. There's a trade-off between ability to swim underwater and fly in the air. Puffins have tiny wings and very inefficient flight in order to be able to swim very well underwater. Flightless penguins are the logical extreme of this.



            If an albatross flapped its massive wings underwater it would break its bones. As such it's unable to dive, and is relegated to a feeding strategy where it attracts squid to the surface at night. It works (evidently), but there's a lot of resources albatrosses can't exploit.



            This sets up the right set of pressures to favour high-lift short wings. If your bladder-bats are able to deflate their bladders to decrease their buoyancy, they might be able to travel vast distances at sea efficiently and dive well enough to hunt beneath the surface of the water. They also avoid the trade-off of water-repellent feathers trapping air and increasing buoyancy so might be better divers than birds.



            They might actually be able to compete well enough with albatrosses (and other diving pelagic birds like shearwaters) to plausibly survive in the wild!



            tl;dr The only plausible set of environmental pressures I can see for bladder-winged bats comes from long-distance flying diving pelagic sea-birds.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$








            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Couldn't the damage issue be mitigated by using many smal bladders instead of one big one? After all, that is how we deal with the problem on airships.
              $endgroup$
              – TheDyingOfLight
              2 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @TheDyingOfLight It could, and they'd likely have a number of small bladders for precisely that reason. It's subject to diminishing returns though. The more separate bladders you have, the more supporting structure you have which eats into your weight reduction (which is the only real reason to have gas-sacks instead of tissue). I suspect there's a happy medium somewhere between the two extremes.
              $endgroup$
              – Ynneadwraith
              2 hours ago















            7












            $begingroup$

            It would have benefits to lift, but they'd be very susceptible to damage.



            Adding air-filled bladders to a wing to make it more aerodynamic would be a lightweight solution to adding lift compared to adding supporting structures so there would be benefit to it.



            Issue 1: damage



            However, skin wings are already more susceptible to damage than feathered ones. The loss of even a number of individual feathers does not necessarily ground a bird, but damage to a bat's wing is easily exacerbated into a full tear through use. As a response to this, bat wings have evolved to be some of the fastest healing mammalian tissue structures.



            If you are relying on the aerodynamic shape of an air-filled bladder on a wing to generate enough lift to fly, then damage to that structure is pretty risky. If a bladder becomes even slightly punctured it will deflate and ruin your aerodynamics. You may still be able to fly using a deflated wing, but evolution tends towards efficiency so it is more likely that any small injury would result in the animal being grounded until it heals and inflates again.



            This doesn't necessarily mean that the trade-off isn't worth it, but the benefits are looking pretty thin.



            Issue 2: alternative solutions



            The usual solution to gaining more lift is to evolve bigger wings. Either longer or broader, depending on your flight strategy. There are drawbacks to this (higher wing-loadings, lower manoeuvrability, and more weight), but it is also quite an easy thing to evolve compared to novel structures within a wing.



            Smaller wings are better for manoeuvrability and lighter weight. They tend to be selected for in environments where animals have to fly around hazards like branches or predators.



            The issue we have with bladder-wings is that what we're after is high-lift small wings. Unfortunately, as these are typically a response to hazardous environments, a solution that is very susceptible to damage is not a great solution.



            Add together inefficient solution and difficult to evolve and it's not hard to see why it hasn't occurred in nature thus far.



            So, how can we make this plausible?



            Perhaps, what we want is a situation where simply increasing wingspan isn't enough. We also want a situation where lift is at a premium over manoeuvrability, and risk of damage is low.



            Maybe your bladder-wing bats are pelagic sea gliders like albatrosses.



            If you're big enough, there's not a great deal out above the open ocean that will damage your wings, and lift is most certainly at a premium if you want to fly vast distances. There have been pterasaurs with very large wingspans so it is possible to have very big skin wings.



            So, they'd probably just evolve really big wings like pterasaurs and albatrosses. Drat.



            Hang on...we might be able to get this to work...



            There are some key trade-offs for animals that both fly and swim. The one we're interested in is the relative wing-loadings of animals that use their wings to swim.



            As water is so much more dense than air, you need a lot stouter wings to swim well in it. There's a trade-off between ability to swim underwater and fly in the air. Puffins have tiny wings and very inefficient flight in order to be able to swim very well underwater. Flightless penguins are the logical extreme of this.



            If an albatross flapped its massive wings underwater it would break its bones. As such it's unable to dive, and is relegated to a feeding strategy where it attracts squid to the surface at night. It works (evidently), but there's a lot of resources albatrosses can't exploit.



            This sets up the right set of pressures to favour high-lift short wings. If your bladder-bats are able to deflate their bladders to decrease their buoyancy, they might be able to travel vast distances at sea efficiently and dive well enough to hunt beneath the surface of the water. They also avoid the trade-off of water-repellent feathers trapping air and increasing buoyancy so might be better divers than birds.



            They might actually be able to compete well enough with albatrosses (and other diving pelagic birds like shearwaters) to plausibly survive in the wild!



            tl;dr The only plausible set of environmental pressures I can see for bladder-winged bats comes from long-distance flying diving pelagic sea-birds.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$








            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Couldn't the damage issue be mitigated by using many smal bladders instead of one big one? After all, that is how we deal with the problem on airships.
              $endgroup$
              – TheDyingOfLight
              2 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @TheDyingOfLight It could, and they'd likely have a number of small bladders for precisely that reason. It's subject to diminishing returns though. The more separate bladders you have, the more supporting structure you have which eats into your weight reduction (which is the only real reason to have gas-sacks instead of tissue). I suspect there's a happy medium somewhere between the two extremes.
              $endgroup$
              – Ynneadwraith
              2 hours ago













            7












            7








            7





            $begingroup$

            It would have benefits to lift, but they'd be very susceptible to damage.



            Adding air-filled bladders to a wing to make it more aerodynamic would be a lightweight solution to adding lift compared to adding supporting structures so there would be benefit to it.



            Issue 1: damage



            However, skin wings are already more susceptible to damage than feathered ones. The loss of even a number of individual feathers does not necessarily ground a bird, but damage to a bat's wing is easily exacerbated into a full tear through use. As a response to this, bat wings have evolved to be some of the fastest healing mammalian tissue structures.



            If you are relying on the aerodynamic shape of an air-filled bladder on a wing to generate enough lift to fly, then damage to that structure is pretty risky. If a bladder becomes even slightly punctured it will deflate and ruin your aerodynamics. You may still be able to fly using a deflated wing, but evolution tends towards efficiency so it is more likely that any small injury would result in the animal being grounded until it heals and inflates again.



            This doesn't necessarily mean that the trade-off isn't worth it, but the benefits are looking pretty thin.



            Issue 2: alternative solutions



            The usual solution to gaining more lift is to evolve bigger wings. Either longer or broader, depending on your flight strategy. There are drawbacks to this (higher wing-loadings, lower manoeuvrability, and more weight), but it is also quite an easy thing to evolve compared to novel structures within a wing.



            Smaller wings are better for manoeuvrability and lighter weight. They tend to be selected for in environments where animals have to fly around hazards like branches or predators.



            The issue we have with bladder-wings is that what we're after is high-lift small wings. Unfortunately, as these are typically a response to hazardous environments, a solution that is very susceptible to damage is not a great solution.



            Add together inefficient solution and difficult to evolve and it's not hard to see why it hasn't occurred in nature thus far.



            So, how can we make this plausible?



            Perhaps, what we want is a situation where simply increasing wingspan isn't enough. We also want a situation where lift is at a premium over manoeuvrability, and risk of damage is low.



            Maybe your bladder-wing bats are pelagic sea gliders like albatrosses.



            If you're big enough, there's not a great deal out above the open ocean that will damage your wings, and lift is most certainly at a premium if you want to fly vast distances. There have been pterasaurs with very large wingspans so it is possible to have very big skin wings.



            So, they'd probably just evolve really big wings like pterasaurs and albatrosses. Drat.



            Hang on...we might be able to get this to work...



            There are some key trade-offs for animals that both fly and swim. The one we're interested in is the relative wing-loadings of animals that use their wings to swim.



            As water is so much more dense than air, you need a lot stouter wings to swim well in it. There's a trade-off between ability to swim underwater and fly in the air. Puffins have tiny wings and very inefficient flight in order to be able to swim very well underwater. Flightless penguins are the logical extreme of this.



            If an albatross flapped its massive wings underwater it would break its bones. As such it's unable to dive, and is relegated to a feeding strategy where it attracts squid to the surface at night. It works (evidently), but there's a lot of resources albatrosses can't exploit.



            This sets up the right set of pressures to favour high-lift short wings. If your bladder-bats are able to deflate their bladders to decrease their buoyancy, they might be able to travel vast distances at sea efficiently and dive well enough to hunt beneath the surface of the water. They also avoid the trade-off of water-repellent feathers trapping air and increasing buoyancy so might be better divers than birds.



            They might actually be able to compete well enough with albatrosses (and other diving pelagic birds like shearwaters) to plausibly survive in the wild!



            tl;dr The only plausible set of environmental pressures I can see for bladder-winged bats comes from long-distance flying diving pelagic sea-birds.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            It would have benefits to lift, but they'd be very susceptible to damage.



            Adding air-filled bladders to a wing to make it more aerodynamic would be a lightweight solution to adding lift compared to adding supporting structures so there would be benefit to it.



            Issue 1: damage



            However, skin wings are already more susceptible to damage than feathered ones. The loss of even a number of individual feathers does not necessarily ground a bird, but damage to a bat's wing is easily exacerbated into a full tear through use. As a response to this, bat wings have evolved to be some of the fastest healing mammalian tissue structures.



            If you are relying on the aerodynamic shape of an air-filled bladder on a wing to generate enough lift to fly, then damage to that structure is pretty risky. If a bladder becomes even slightly punctured it will deflate and ruin your aerodynamics. You may still be able to fly using a deflated wing, but evolution tends towards efficiency so it is more likely that any small injury would result in the animal being grounded until it heals and inflates again.



            This doesn't necessarily mean that the trade-off isn't worth it, but the benefits are looking pretty thin.



            Issue 2: alternative solutions



            The usual solution to gaining more lift is to evolve bigger wings. Either longer or broader, depending on your flight strategy. There are drawbacks to this (higher wing-loadings, lower manoeuvrability, and more weight), but it is also quite an easy thing to evolve compared to novel structures within a wing.



            Smaller wings are better for manoeuvrability and lighter weight. They tend to be selected for in environments where animals have to fly around hazards like branches or predators.



            The issue we have with bladder-wings is that what we're after is high-lift small wings. Unfortunately, as these are typically a response to hazardous environments, a solution that is very susceptible to damage is not a great solution.



            Add together inefficient solution and difficult to evolve and it's not hard to see why it hasn't occurred in nature thus far.



            So, how can we make this plausible?



            Perhaps, what we want is a situation where simply increasing wingspan isn't enough. We also want a situation where lift is at a premium over manoeuvrability, and risk of damage is low.



            Maybe your bladder-wing bats are pelagic sea gliders like albatrosses.



            If you're big enough, there's not a great deal out above the open ocean that will damage your wings, and lift is most certainly at a premium if you want to fly vast distances. There have been pterasaurs with very large wingspans so it is possible to have very big skin wings.



            So, they'd probably just evolve really big wings like pterasaurs and albatrosses. Drat.



            Hang on...we might be able to get this to work...



            There are some key trade-offs for animals that both fly and swim. The one we're interested in is the relative wing-loadings of animals that use their wings to swim.



            As water is so much more dense than air, you need a lot stouter wings to swim well in it. There's a trade-off between ability to swim underwater and fly in the air. Puffins have tiny wings and very inefficient flight in order to be able to swim very well underwater. Flightless penguins are the logical extreme of this.



            If an albatross flapped its massive wings underwater it would break its bones. As such it's unable to dive, and is relegated to a feeding strategy where it attracts squid to the surface at night. It works (evidently), but there's a lot of resources albatrosses can't exploit.



            This sets up the right set of pressures to favour high-lift short wings. If your bladder-bats are able to deflate their bladders to decrease their buoyancy, they might be able to travel vast distances at sea efficiently and dive well enough to hunt beneath the surface of the water. They also avoid the trade-off of water-repellent feathers trapping air and increasing buoyancy so might be better divers than birds.



            They might actually be able to compete well enough with albatrosses (and other diving pelagic birds like shearwaters) to plausibly survive in the wild!



            tl;dr The only plausible set of environmental pressures I can see for bladder-winged bats comes from long-distance flying diving pelagic sea-birds.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 3 hours ago

























            answered 4 hours ago









            YnneadwraithYnneadwraith

            6,16911730




            6,16911730







            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Couldn't the damage issue be mitigated by using many smal bladders instead of one big one? After all, that is how we deal with the problem on airships.
              $endgroup$
              – TheDyingOfLight
              2 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @TheDyingOfLight It could, and they'd likely have a number of small bladders for precisely that reason. It's subject to diminishing returns though. The more separate bladders you have, the more supporting structure you have which eats into your weight reduction (which is the only real reason to have gas-sacks instead of tissue). I suspect there's a happy medium somewhere between the two extremes.
              $endgroup$
              – Ynneadwraith
              2 hours ago












            • 2




              $begingroup$
              Couldn't the damage issue be mitigated by using many smal bladders instead of one big one? After all, that is how we deal with the problem on airships.
              $endgroup$
              – TheDyingOfLight
              2 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @TheDyingOfLight It could, and they'd likely have a number of small bladders for precisely that reason. It's subject to diminishing returns though. The more separate bladders you have, the more supporting structure you have which eats into your weight reduction (which is the only real reason to have gas-sacks instead of tissue). I suspect there's a happy medium somewhere between the two extremes.
              $endgroup$
              – Ynneadwraith
              2 hours ago







            2




            2




            $begingroup$
            Couldn't the damage issue be mitigated by using many smal bladders instead of one big one? After all, that is how we deal with the problem on airships.
            $endgroup$
            – TheDyingOfLight
            2 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            Couldn't the damage issue be mitigated by using many smal bladders instead of one big one? After all, that is how we deal with the problem on airships.
            $endgroup$
            – TheDyingOfLight
            2 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            @TheDyingOfLight It could, and they'd likely have a number of small bladders for precisely that reason. It's subject to diminishing returns though. The more separate bladders you have, the more supporting structure you have which eats into your weight reduction (which is the only real reason to have gas-sacks instead of tissue). I suspect there's a happy medium somewhere between the two extremes.
            $endgroup$
            – Ynneadwraith
            2 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            @TheDyingOfLight It could, and they'd likely have a number of small bladders for precisely that reason. It's subject to diminishing returns though. The more separate bladders you have, the more supporting structure you have which eats into your weight reduction (which is the only real reason to have gas-sacks instead of tissue). I suspect there's a happy medium somewhere between the two extremes.
            $endgroup$
            – Ynneadwraith
            2 hours ago











            3












            $begingroup$

            At the scale of a bat (normally not much bigger than a house mouse, maximum about the weight of a large rat) the cross section of the airfoil makes much less difference that it would with something that weighs, for instance, what a large hawk or albatross does.



            In fact, the bat's thin wing has a much thicker bone "spar" near the leading edge, and a deeply cambered surface behind; this is actually a very efficient shape for a small (low Reynolds number), low-loading surface. To compare, look at the difference between the wings of small hand launched gliders (typical span 30-45 cm, weight comparable to a small bat) and those of larger model sailplanes (spans 1.5 to 3 m, weight 1-5 kg).



            The hand launch gliders have very thin wings, and in fact often little camber; this latter is because they need to fly at very high speed when launched, but the designs that have used built-up wings to add thickness have not generally done enough better in competition to take over from the thin solid sheet wing construction. It's also common for indoor hand launch gliders to have flexible cambered surfaces -- the camber "blows flat" during the high speed launch, then flexes back like a flap to increase lift and change stability during the glide. In final configuration, the result is much like the inner panel of a bat's wing (inboard of the "pinkie finger" bone).



            Therefore, in considerable of the relative fragility of an air bladder (as mentioned in another answer) and the questionable aerodynamic advantage of a thicker wing over a thin, cambered one in this flight regime, it seems unlikely that such a feature would provide enough advantage to evolve naturally.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$

















              3












              $begingroup$

              At the scale of a bat (normally not much bigger than a house mouse, maximum about the weight of a large rat) the cross section of the airfoil makes much less difference that it would with something that weighs, for instance, what a large hawk or albatross does.



              In fact, the bat's thin wing has a much thicker bone "spar" near the leading edge, and a deeply cambered surface behind; this is actually a very efficient shape for a small (low Reynolds number), low-loading surface. To compare, look at the difference between the wings of small hand launched gliders (typical span 30-45 cm, weight comparable to a small bat) and those of larger model sailplanes (spans 1.5 to 3 m, weight 1-5 kg).



              The hand launch gliders have very thin wings, and in fact often little camber; this latter is because they need to fly at very high speed when launched, but the designs that have used built-up wings to add thickness have not generally done enough better in competition to take over from the thin solid sheet wing construction. It's also common for indoor hand launch gliders to have flexible cambered surfaces -- the camber "blows flat" during the high speed launch, then flexes back like a flap to increase lift and change stability during the glide. In final configuration, the result is much like the inner panel of a bat's wing (inboard of the "pinkie finger" bone).



              Therefore, in considerable of the relative fragility of an air bladder (as mentioned in another answer) and the questionable aerodynamic advantage of a thicker wing over a thin, cambered one in this flight regime, it seems unlikely that such a feature would provide enough advantage to evolve naturally.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$















                3












                3








                3





                $begingroup$

                At the scale of a bat (normally not much bigger than a house mouse, maximum about the weight of a large rat) the cross section of the airfoil makes much less difference that it would with something that weighs, for instance, what a large hawk or albatross does.



                In fact, the bat's thin wing has a much thicker bone "spar" near the leading edge, and a deeply cambered surface behind; this is actually a very efficient shape for a small (low Reynolds number), low-loading surface. To compare, look at the difference between the wings of small hand launched gliders (typical span 30-45 cm, weight comparable to a small bat) and those of larger model sailplanes (spans 1.5 to 3 m, weight 1-5 kg).



                The hand launch gliders have very thin wings, and in fact often little camber; this latter is because they need to fly at very high speed when launched, but the designs that have used built-up wings to add thickness have not generally done enough better in competition to take over from the thin solid sheet wing construction. It's also common for indoor hand launch gliders to have flexible cambered surfaces -- the camber "blows flat" during the high speed launch, then flexes back like a flap to increase lift and change stability during the glide. In final configuration, the result is much like the inner panel of a bat's wing (inboard of the "pinkie finger" bone).



                Therefore, in considerable of the relative fragility of an air bladder (as mentioned in another answer) and the questionable aerodynamic advantage of a thicker wing over a thin, cambered one in this flight regime, it seems unlikely that such a feature would provide enough advantage to evolve naturally.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                At the scale of a bat (normally not much bigger than a house mouse, maximum about the weight of a large rat) the cross section of the airfoil makes much less difference that it would with something that weighs, for instance, what a large hawk or albatross does.



                In fact, the bat's thin wing has a much thicker bone "spar" near the leading edge, and a deeply cambered surface behind; this is actually a very efficient shape for a small (low Reynolds number), low-loading surface. To compare, look at the difference between the wings of small hand launched gliders (typical span 30-45 cm, weight comparable to a small bat) and those of larger model sailplanes (spans 1.5 to 3 m, weight 1-5 kg).



                The hand launch gliders have very thin wings, and in fact often little camber; this latter is because they need to fly at very high speed when launched, but the designs that have used built-up wings to add thickness have not generally done enough better in competition to take over from the thin solid sheet wing construction. It's also common for indoor hand launch gliders to have flexible cambered surfaces -- the camber "blows flat" during the high speed launch, then flexes back like a flap to increase lift and change stability during the glide. In final configuration, the result is much like the inner panel of a bat's wing (inboard of the "pinkie finger" bone).



                Therefore, in considerable of the relative fragility of an air bladder (as mentioned in another answer) and the questionable aerodynamic advantage of a thicker wing over a thin, cambered one in this flight regime, it seems unlikely that such a feature would provide enough advantage to evolve naturally.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 3 hours ago









                Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon

                2,674117




                2,674117



























                    draft saved

                    draft discarded
















































                    Thanks for contributing an answer to Worldbuilding Stack Exchange!


                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                    But avoid


                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                    Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                    draft saved


                    draft discarded














                    StackExchange.ready(
                    function ()
                    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f145722%2fair-bladders-in-bat-like-skin-wings-for-better-lift%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                    );

                    Post as a guest















                    Required, but never shown





















































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown

































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown







                    Popular posts from this blog

                    Oświęcim Innehåll Historia | Källor | Externa länkar | Navigeringsmeny50°2′18″N 19°13′17″Ö / 50.03833°N 19.22139°Ö / 50.03833; 19.2213950°2′18″N 19°13′17″Ö / 50.03833°N 19.22139°Ö / 50.03833; 19.221393089658Nordisk familjebok, AuschwitzInsidan tro och existensJewish Community i OświęcimAuschwitz Jewish Center: MuseumAuschwitz Jewish Center

                    Valle di Casies Indice Geografia fisica | Origini del nome | Storia | Società | Amministrazione | Sport | Note | Bibliografia | Voci correlate | Altri progetti | Collegamenti esterni | Menu di navigazione46°46′N 12°11′E / 46.766667°N 12.183333°E46.766667; 12.183333 (Valle di Casies)46°46′N 12°11′E / 46.766667°N 12.183333°E46.766667; 12.183333 (Valle di Casies)Sito istituzionaleAstat Censimento della popolazione 2011 - Determinazione della consistenza dei tre gruppi linguistici della Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano-Alto Adige - giugno 2012Numeri e fattiValle di CasiesDato IstatTabella dei gradi/giorno dei Comuni italiani raggruppati per Regione e Provincia26 agosto 1993, n. 412Heraldry of the World: GsiesStatistiche I.StatValCasies.comWikimedia CommonsWikimedia CommonsValle di CasiesSito ufficialeValle di CasiesMM14870458910042978-6

                    Typsetting diagram chases (with TikZ?) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)How to define the default vertical distance between nodes?Draw edge on arcNumerical conditional within tikz keys?TikZ: Drawing an arc from an intersection to an intersectionDrawing rectilinear curves in Tikz, aka an Etch-a-Sketch drawingLine up nested tikz enviroments or how to get rid of themHow to place nodes in an absolute coordinate system in tikzCommutative diagram with curve connecting between nodesTikz with standalone: pinning tikz coordinates to page cmDrawing a Decision Diagram with Tikz and layout manager