What killed these X2 caps?iPhone programmable capswhat is the value of these capacitors?What are these capacitors?What is the difference between these circuit?what frequencies do caps filter?What are these electrolytic capacitors?Replace foil caps with ceramic caps?Dimensioning smoothing capacitor for China DIY LED lampWhat is the type of these caps?Are these circuits equivalents (caps in parallel with VCC)
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What killed these X2 caps?
iPhone programmable capswhat is the value of these capacitors?What are these capacitors?What is the difference between these circuit?what frequencies do caps filter?What are these electrolytic capacitors?Replace foil caps with ceramic caps?Dimensioning smoothing capacitor for China DIY LED lampWhat is the type of these caps?Are these circuits equivalents (caps in parallel with VCC)
$begingroup$
A few years ago, I designed an MCU-controlled dimmer driving a 150W mains halogen lamp. This is in Western Europe; 50Hz 230VAC. It uses X2-rated capacitors as capacitive droppers for the power supply, and another X2-rated capacitor for interference suppression:
The dimmer has gradually started misbehaving, and on debugging I found that all of the X2 caps have died (meaning they have less than 10% of their rated capacitance remaining):
The caps in the picture:
C1, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.4nF
C2, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.9nF
C5, interference suppression, should be 100nF, measures 1.4nF
Cnew, fresh cap not from circuit, measures 93nF
All of them measure open circuit (>40MΩ) on resistance.
C1, C2, and Cnew are labeled MEX/TENTA MKP 0.1µF K X2 275VAC 40/100/21 [approval logos] EN 60384-14 01-14 250VAC; 275VAC nominal rated (significantly higher withstanding voltage, datasheet here). They are all from the same batch, bought in Sep 2016. I suspect 01-14 is a date code, so they'd be from early 2014.
C5 is from the same brand; it has virtually the same markings (except EN 132400), but is physically larger. I got it as part of some Velleman kit years ago, where it was also used as a suppression cap. No datasheet.
What caused these caps to lose their capacitance?
- Is this deterioration normal behaviour for X2 caps? The dimmer saw a lot of use, being powered for an estimated 7000 hours.
- Should I have derated the caps more? I agree 230VAC is pretty close to 275VAC, but as I understand it that is their nominal rating, and they should be able to handle transients way above that. Also, 275VAC seems by far the most common rating available on Digikey and the like.
- Am I using the capacitors wrong somehow?
- Are these capacitors from a bad brand/series/batch?
capacitor mains x-capacitor
asked 1 hour ago
marcelmmarcelm
1,3771716
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A few years ago, I designed an MCU-controlled dimmer driving a 150W mains halogen lamp. This is in Western Europe; 50Hz 230VAC. It uses X2-rated capacitors as capacitive droppers for the power supply, and another X2-rated capacitor for interference suppression:
The dimmer has gradually started misbehaving, and on debugging I found that all of the X2 caps have died (meaning they have less than 10% of their rated capacitance remaining):
The caps in the picture:
C1, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.4nF
C2, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.9nF
C5, interference suppression, should be 100nF, measures 1.4nF
Cnew, fresh cap not from circuit, measures 93nF
All of them measure open circuit (>40MΩ) on resistance.
C1, C2, and Cnew are labeled MEX/TENTA MKP 0.1µF K X2 275VAC 40/100/21 [approval logos] EN 60384-14 01-14 250VAC; 275VAC nominal rated (significantly higher withstanding voltage, datasheet here). They are all from the same batch, bought in Sep 2016. I suspect 01-14 is a date code, so they'd be from early 2014.
C5 is from the same brand; it has virtually the same markings (except EN 132400), but is physically larger. I got it as part of some Velleman kit years ago, where it was also used as a suppression cap. No datasheet.
What caused these caps to lose their capacitance?
- Is this deterioration normal behaviour for X2 caps? The dimmer saw a lot of use, being powered for an estimated 7000 hours.
- Should I have derated the caps more? I agree 230VAC is pretty close to 275VAC, but as I understand it that is their nominal rating, and they should be able to handle transients way above that. Also, 275VAC seems by far the most common rating available on Digikey and the like.
- Am I using the capacitors wrong somehow?
- Are these capacitors from a bad brand/series/batch?
capacitor mains x-capacitor
asked 1 hour ago
marcelmmarcelm
1,3771716
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
$endgroup$
– Transistor
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
$endgroup$
– marcelm
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
10 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A few years ago, I designed an MCU-controlled dimmer driving a 150W mains halogen lamp. This is in Western Europe; 50Hz 230VAC. It uses X2-rated capacitors as capacitive droppers for the power supply, and another X2-rated capacitor for interference suppression:
The dimmer has gradually started misbehaving, and on debugging I found that all of the X2 caps have died (meaning they have less than 10% of their rated capacitance remaining):
The caps in the picture:
C1, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.4nF
C2, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.9nF
C5, interference suppression, should be 100nF, measures 1.4nF
Cnew, fresh cap not from circuit, measures 93nF
All of them measure open circuit (>40MΩ) on resistance.
C1, C2, and Cnew are labeled MEX/TENTA MKP 0.1µF K X2 275VAC 40/100/21 [approval logos] EN 60384-14 01-14 250VAC; 275VAC nominal rated (significantly higher withstanding voltage, datasheet here). They are all from the same batch, bought in Sep 2016. I suspect 01-14 is a date code, so they'd be from early 2014.
C5 is from the same brand; it has virtually the same markings (except EN 132400), but is physically larger. I got it as part of some Velleman kit years ago, where it was also used as a suppression cap. No datasheet.
What caused these caps to lose their capacitance?
- Is this deterioration normal behaviour for X2 caps? The dimmer saw a lot of use, being powered for an estimated 7000 hours.
- Should I have derated the caps more? I agree 230VAC is pretty close to 275VAC, but as I understand it that is their nominal rating, and they should be able to handle transients way above that. Also, 275VAC seems by far the most common rating available on Digikey and the like.
- Am I using the capacitors wrong somehow?
- Are these capacitors from a bad brand/series/batch?
capacitor mains x-capacitor
asked 1 hour ago
marcelmmarcelm
1,3771716
$endgroup$
A few years ago, I designed an MCU-controlled dimmer driving a 150W mains halogen lamp. This is in Western Europe; 50Hz 230VAC. It uses X2-rated capacitors as capacitive droppers for the power supply, and another X2-rated capacitor for interference suppression:
The dimmer has gradually started misbehaving, and on debugging I found that all of the X2 caps have died (meaning they have less than 10% of their rated capacitance remaining):
The caps in the picture:
C1, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.4nF
C2, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.9nF
C5, interference suppression, should be 100nF, measures 1.4nF
Cnew, fresh cap not from circuit, measures 93nF
All of them measure open circuit (>40MΩ) on resistance.
C1, C2, and Cnew are labeled MEX/TENTA MKP 0.1µF K X2 275VAC 40/100/21 [approval logos] EN 60384-14 01-14 250VAC; 275VAC nominal rated (significantly higher withstanding voltage, datasheet here). They are all from the same batch, bought in Sep 2016. I suspect 01-14 is a date code, so they'd be from early 2014.
C5 is from the same brand; it has virtually the same markings (except EN 132400), but is physically larger. I got it as part of some Velleman kit years ago, where it was also used as a suppression cap. No datasheet.
What caused these caps to lose their capacitance?
- Is this deterioration normal behaviour for X2 caps? The dimmer saw a lot of use, being powered for an estimated 7000 hours.
- Should I have derated the caps more? I agree 230VAC is pretty close to 275VAC, but as I understand it that is their nominal rating, and they should be able to handle transients way above that. Also, 275VAC seems by far the most common rating available on Digikey and the like.
- Am I using the capacitors wrong somehow?
- Are these capacitors from a bad brand/series/batch?
capacitor mains x-capacitor
capacitor mains x-capacitor
asked 1 hour ago
marcelmmarcelm
1,3771716
asked 1 hour ago
marcelmmarcelm
1,3771716
edited 1 hour ago
marcelm
asked 1 hour ago
marcelmmarcelm
1,3771716
asked 1 hour ago
marcelmmarcelm
1,3771716
asked 1 hour ago
marcelmmarcelm
1,3771716
1,3771716
1
$begingroup$
Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
$endgroup$
– Transistor
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
$endgroup$
– marcelm
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
10 mins ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
$endgroup$
– Transistor
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
$endgroup$
– marcelm
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
10 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
$endgroup$
– Transistor
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
$endgroup$
– Transistor
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
$endgroup$
– marcelm
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
$endgroup$
– marcelm
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
10 mins ago
$begingroup$
230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
10 mins ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.
It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.
answered 1 hour ago
Spehro PefhanySpehro Pefhany
212k5162428
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Or X1 if they will fit.
$endgroup$
– Robert Endl
1 min ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
1
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oldest
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votes
$begingroup$
The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.
It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.
answered 1 hour ago
Spehro PefhanySpehro Pefhany
212k5162428
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Or X1 if they will fit.
$endgroup$
– Robert Endl
1 min ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.
It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.
answered 1 hour ago
Spehro PefhanySpehro Pefhany
212k5162428
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Or X1 if they will fit.
$endgroup$
– Robert Endl
1 min ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.
It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.
answered 1 hour ago
Spehro PefhanySpehro Pefhany
212k5162428
$endgroup$
The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.
It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.
answered 1 hour ago
Spehro PefhanySpehro Pefhany
212k5162428
answered 1 hour ago
Spehro PefhanySpehro Pefhany
212k5162428
answered 1 hour ago
Spehro PefhanySpehro Pefhany
212k5162428
answered 1 hour ago
Spehro PefhanySpehro Pefhany
212k5162428
212k5162428
$begingroup$
Or X1 if they will fit.
$endgroup$
– Robert Endl
1 min ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Or X1 if they will fit.
$endgroup$
– Robert Endl
1 min ago
$begingroup$
Or X1 if they will fit.
$endgroup$
– Robert Endl
1 min ago
$begingroup$
Or X1 if they will fit.
$endgroup$
– Robert Endl
1 min ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
$endgroup$
– Transistor
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
$endgroup$
– marcelm
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
10 mins ago