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What to do with someone that cheated their way though university and a PhD program?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)Is it dishonest to start a PhD with intent to leave it and transfer to another program?Does wearing a university t-shirt imply that the wearer is affiliated with the university?Is it acceptable for a graduate student to use their university email and affiliation in furtherance of a commercial interest?What should I do if someone else claims an award that I actually won?What can happen if someone acknowledges a grant on papers not related to that grant?Ethics of staying in PhD program with no intention of being an academic, and misleading my advisor about thisChange from one PhD-Program to a much more prestigious (and better paid) new program at my institutionWhat was offensive about the “ladies lingerie department” joke, and how can I avoid offending people in a similar way?What does it say about someone that accepts adding their name to a publication without doing any of the work?I grade exams together with a colleague but disagree with their grading. What should I do?
A person I know cheated through most of their science classes while an undergrad. He literally had someone else take the exams for him, write his reports, and do most of his homework. He then took his stellar gpa and not so stellar GRE score and got admitted to a not so great PhD program. His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers. He ingratiated himself with the head of the department - he is a schmooze king. By doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do he gained favor - cutting open mice heads and placing electrodes in them for whatever experiment his professor needed for his research. His doctoral thesis was weak and the defense round wasn't difficult. He was awarded his PhD. Mind you, he still can't explain to me nearly anything about basic chemistry, organic chemistry or biochemistry concepts. I'm talking like sn1, sn2, benzene rings, buffers, etc...
He now has a job with a pharmaceutical company doing anything but real science. He's basically a pharmaceutical rep out selling drugs to various physicians in a territory.
Do I tell his employer? Do I tell the university? Do I let it go? I have no way to prove anything. I'm sure none of those guys that took his tests for him will come forward and tell the truth. He has gotten away with fraud.
ethics
New contributor
add a comment |
A person I know cheated through most of their science classes while an undergrad. He literally had someone else take the exams for him, write his reports, and do most of his homework. He then took his stellar gpa and not so stellar GRE score and got admitted to a not so great PhD program. His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers. He ingratiated himself with the head of the department - he is a schmooze king. By doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do he gained favor - cutting open mice heads and placing electrodes in them for whatever experiment his professor needed for his research. His doctoral thesis was weak and the defense round wasn't difficult. He was awarded his PhD. Mind you, he still can't explain to me nearly anything about basic chemistry, organic chemistry or biochemistry concepts. I'm talking like sn1, sn2, benzene rings, buffers, etc...
He now has a job with a pharmaceutical company doing anything but real science. He's basically a pharmaceutical rep out selling drugs to various physicians in a territory.
Do I tell his employer? Do I tell the university? Do I let it go? I have no way to prove anything. I'm sure none of those guys that took his tests for him will come forward and tell the truth. He has gotten away with fraud.
ethics
New contributor
25
A pharmaceutical rep being a giant scumbag? What a surprise
– Azor Ahai
4 hours ago
8
Get over it! Nothing to do with you, too many scumbags in life to chase them all. Do good work and people will notice. Everyone notices schmoozers in the end and they don't get to do fun work.
– FChm
4 hours ago
@FChm, I know you're right. It just gets to me. I hate it when cheaters win.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
4
It depends what you define as winning, set your own life goals and metrics for happiness and let everyone else do their own thing. Personally, working as a pharmaceutical rep sounds like hell to me. But someone who puts financial gain at the top of their life agenda may like it.
– FChm
4 hours ago
2
Given you umbrage at his getting a degree, would you insist that the person be penniless and homeless? Seems to me they took a job that fits their skill set and is executing well, in spite of having a PhD.
– Jon Custer
4 hours ago
add a comment |
A person I know cheated through most of their science classes while an undergrad. He literally had someone else take the exams for him, write his reports, and do most of his homework. He then took his stellar gpa and not so stellar GRE score and got admitted to a not so great PhD program. His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers. He ingratiated himself with the head of the department - he is a schmooze king. By doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do he gained favor - cutting open mice heads and placing electrodes in them for whatever experiment his professor needed for his research. His doctoral thesis was weak and the defense round wasn't difficult. He was awarded his PhD. Mind you, he still can't explain to me nearly anything about basic chemistry, organic chemistry or biochemistry concepts. I'm talking like sn1, sn2, benzene rings, buffers, etc...
He now has a job with a pharmaceutical company doing anything but real science. He's basically a pharmaceutical rep out selling drugs to various physicians in a territory.
Do I tell his employer? Do I tell the university? Do I let it go? I have no way to prove anything. I'm sure none of those guys that took his tests for him will come forward and tell the truth. He has gotten away with fraud.
ethics
New contributor
A person I know cheated through most of their science classes while an undergrad. He literally had someone else take the exams for him, write his reports, and do most of his homework. He then took his stellar gpa and not so stellar GRE score and got admitted to a not so great PhD program. His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers. He ingratiated himself with the head of the department - he is a schmooze king. By doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do he gained favor - cutting open mice heads and placing electrodes in them for whatever experiment his professor needed for his research. His doctoral thesis was weak and the defense round wasn't difficult. He was awarded his PhD. Mind you, he still can't explain to me nearly anything about basic chemistry, organic chemistry or biochemistry concepts. I'm talking like sn1, sn2, benzene rings, buffers, etc...
He now has a job with a pharmaceutical company doing anything but real science. He's basically a pharmaceutical rep out selling drugs to various physicians in a territory.
Do I tell his employer? Do I tell the university? Do I let it go? I have no way to prove anything. I'm sure none of those guys that took his tests for him will come forward and tell the truth. He has gotten away with fraud.
ethics
ethics
New contributor
New contributor
edited 4 hours ago
Jeffery Thomas
New contributor
asked 4 hours ago
Jeffery ThomasJeffery Thomas
1444
1444
New contributor
New contributor
25
A pharmaceutical rep being a giant scumbag? What a surprise
– Azor Ahai
4 hours ago
8
Get over it! Nothing to do with you, too many scumbags in life to chase them all. Do good work and people will notice. Everyone notices schmoozers in the end and they don't get to do fun work.
– FChm
4 hours ago
@FChm, I know you're right. It just gets to me. I hate it when cheaters win.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
4
It depends what you define as winning, set your own life goals and metrics for happiness and let everyone else do their own thing. Personally, working as a pharmaceutical rep sounds like hell to me. But someone who puts financial gain at the top of their life agenda may like it.
– FChm
4 hours ago
2
Given you umbrage at his getting a degree, would you insist that the person be penniless and homeless? Seems to me they took a job that fits their skill set and is executing well, in spite of having a PhD.
– Jon Custer
4 hours ago
add a comment |
25
A pharmaceutical rep being a giant scumbag? What a surprise
– Azor Ahai
4 hours ago
8
Get over it! Nothing to do with you, too many scumbags in life to chase them all. Do good work and people will notice. Everyone notices schmoozers in the end and they don't get to do fun work.
– FChm
4 hours ago
@FChm, I know you're right. It just gets to me. I hate it when cheaters win.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
4
It depends what you define as winning, set your own life goals and metrics for happiness and let everyone else do their own thing. Personally, working as a pharmaceutical rep sounds like hell to me. But someone who puts financial gain at the top of their life agenda may like it.
– FChm
4 hours ago
2
Given you umbrage at his getting a degree, would you insist that the person be penniless and homeless? Seems to me they took a job that fits their skill set and is executing well, in spite of having a PhD.
– Jon Custer
4 hours ago
25
25
A pharmaceutical rep being a giant scumbag? What a surprise
– Azor Ahai
4 hours ago
A pharmaceutical rep being a giant scumbag? What a surprise
– Azor Ahai
4 hours ago
8
8
Get over it! Nothing to do with you, too many scumbags in life to chase them all. Do good work and people will notice. Everyone notices schmoozers in the end and they don't get to do fun work.
– FChm
4 hours ago
Get over it! Nothing to do with you, too many scumbags in life to chase them all. Do good work and people will notice. Everyone notices schmoozers in the end and they don't get to do fun work.
– FChm
4 hours ago
@FChm, I know you're right. It just gets to me. I hate it when cheaters win.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
@FChm, I know you're right. It just gets to me. I hate it when cheaters win.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
4
4
It depends what you define as winning, set your own life goals and metrics for happiness and let everyone else do their own thing. Personally, working as a pharmaceutical rep sounds like hell to me. But someone who puts financial gain at the top of their life agenda may like it.
– FChm
4 hours ago
It depends what you define as winning, set your own life goals and metrics for happiness and let everyone else do their own thing. Personally, working as a pharmaceutical rep sounds like hell to me. But someone who puts financial gain at the top of their life agenda may like it.
– FChm
4 hours ago
2
2
Given you umbrage at his getting a degree, would you insist that the person be penniless and homeless? Seems to me they took a job that fits their skill set and is executing well, in spite of having a PhD.
– Jon Custer
4 hours ago
Given you umbrage at his getting a degree, would you insist that the person be penniless and homeless? Seems to me they took a job that fits their skill set and is executing well, in spite of having a PhD.
– Jon Custer
4 hours ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
He literally had someone else take the exams for him
If you wanted to speak out, that was really the right time, not so many years later when damage is done and every accusation is virtually unprovable.
His doctoral thesis was weak and the defense round wasn't difficult.
There are many weak PhD theses around, and it's up to the universities and to the defense committees to decide which level of weakness is acceptable before rejecting a candidate (gosh, if we were to object to any "weak" degree...).
Do I tell his employer? Do I tell the university? Do I let it go?
You let it go because, as you said, you've nothing to prove your accusations (and the university would have no interest in undertaking an investigation after such a long time without any evidence to start with). And he is now in industry, and it's up to his employer to decide whether to promote or demote him according to his work performance and to decide whether the PhD title is just a vacuous document in his hands.
Different is the case where, for instance, you can prove that a student cheated by plagiarising other works. Here, there is evidence that can be used to revoke a degree, as it happened in some cases.
That's just it. He is schmoozing his way up the ladder. He just got promoted to a senior level position. We don't work together so it's not like that's the angle I'm taking. I'm related to this person. I thought for sure he would have been found out by now but he keeps moving around enough that no one figures it out.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
19
@JefferyThomas Time to stop being jelly and focusing on him and start focusing on you. Schmoozing one's way up the ladder has been standard business procedure since the beginning of corporate ladders. Socializing is a legitimate skill that has legitimate uses, including getting yourself better jobs. Unless you have something actionable and provable right now, you've missed the train on holding him to account on your allegations. That's your failure, not his, and what his problems and failures are are not your problem or responsibility.
– zibadawa timmy
4 hours ago
add a comment |
You should stop beating the horse, because it is dead now. You had a chance but you lost it when you were in school and when something could have done about it. Right now, I believe you don't have any option other than letting it go. I can imagine your frustation in seeing him moving up the ladder (probably higher than you). If you didn't say anything when it actually could have changed anything, you should make peace with it now.
Even if you tell his employer now, what proof do you have to prove your allegation? University probably won't have any interest in pursuing this now. Honestly speaking, I sense jealousy in your post that he is doing good after all this. What you call "schmooze king", is actually a desirable skill in industry. More connections you can make, better are your chances to move up the ladder faster. So I would say, stop being obsessive with his success (with fraud or otherwise), and focus on your career.
add a comment |
I agree with others generally regarding your specific question about telling the school(s). You missed your chance to really stop him when you should have, at least if you cared about him not getting undeserved degrees.
However I strongly disagree with some of these "let it go" answers, at least in terms of their lack of concern. An unqualified chemist who doesn't know the fundamentals (that their resume claims they know) can literally kill people. Stories abound of such idiots in chemistry-related industries. As for the answer extolling "hard work". A person who worked hard to be a fraud sounds like a more dangerous type of fraud to me.
A pharmaceutical rep shouldn't be in a position to do any damage, if everyone else does their job properly. But with those credentials he is especially dangerous as people might be more trusting of a phd's claims. And let's not forget this is a guy who doesn't care about silly things like "rules" or doing things the right way.
Your concern needs to be about the damage he can do now. And the people who would care about that are his employer. However this is beyond the scope of this forum and I really don't have an answer how to address that. It is much more specific and legal question to your situation. Generally, others are probably right that there's not much you can do at this point from afar.
Yes, incompetent chemists working in healthcare is scary -- OP should have stopped this back when they had the chance. But now OP has no way to prove these allegations, so they have no choice but to let it go.
– cag51
45 mins ago
@cag51 fair point. But what I meant was this is not really for a bunch of academics to advise about. I'll edit a bit to clarify this.
– A Simple Algorithm
40 mins ago
add a comment |
You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing. You're not nearly as good at working a room or a social/corporate/academic hierarchy as he is - he's shown himself to be very good at selling himself, at making sure that people feel comfortable with him. You're basically upset that he's a better salesperson than you are, and you're upset that he got what is, in your words, a job selling things. It sounds like he learned quite a bit while getting his PhD, and is putting those skills to good use.
New contributor
2
Re: "You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing": What exactly is the OP wrong about? I don't see anything in the question about not working hard.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
@ruakh The conceit of the question is that the person did not "earn" their PhD. Is that unclear?
– David Rice
1 hour ago
2
The conceit of the question is that the person cheated (e.g. "His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers"). The question openly acknowledges that the person did work (e.g. "physical work that very few of the other grad students would do"), but so what? (If I pay someone a full year of my salary to take a test for me, does that mean I've "earned" the grade I get?) In fact, it's rather a commonplace for professors to talk about all the work that cheaters put into cheating, and how it would be easier to just do the work they're supposed to.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
4
This answer makes an important point that other answers omit, but then overstates it and overlooks other parts of the story. Things like “…doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do” are indeed working hard and should legitimately count towards earning a PhD, and similarly to some extent for the socialising — OP is wrong to dismiss these, as you say. However, other parts of the story like “had someone else take the exams for him” and “his new girlfriend […] wrote a lot of is papers” really are misconduct — the OP is perfectly reasonable in taking issue with those.
– PLL
1 hour ago
1
It doesn't sound like he got a degree in marketing though. It sounds like he got a degree in biochemistry. Giving him a degree in something that he doesnt actually understand devalues the degrees of those that do understand.
– zero298
27 mins ago
|
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4 Answers
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4 Answers
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He literally had someone else take the exams for him
If you wanted to speak out, that was really the right time, not so many years later when damage is done and every accusation is virtually unprovable.
His doctoral thesis was weak and the defense round wasn't difficult.
There are many weak PhD theses around, and it's up to the universities and to the defense committees to decide which level of weakness is acceptable before rejecting a candidate (gosh, if we were to object to any "weak" degree...).
Do I tell his employer? Do I tell the university? Do I let it go?
You let it go because, as you said, you've nothing to prove your accusations (and the university would have no interest in undertaking an investigation after such a long time without any evidence to start with). And he is now in industry, and it's up to his employer to decide whether to promote or demote him according to his work performance and to decide whether the PhD title is just a vacuous document in his hands.
Different is the case where, for instance, you can prove that a student cheated by plagiarising other works. Here, there is evidence that can be used to revoke a degree, as it happened in some cases.
That's just it. He is schmoozing his way up the ladder. He just got promoted to a senior level position. We don't work together so it's not like that's the angle I'm taking. I'm related to this person. I thought for sure he would have been found out by now but he keeps moving around enough that no one figures it out.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
19
@JefferyThomas Time to stop being jelly and focusing on him and start focusing on you. Schmoozing one's way up the ladder has been standard business procedure since the beginning of corporate ladders. Socializing is a legitimate skill that has legitimate uses, including getting yourself better jobs. Unless you have something actionable and provable right now, you've missed the train on holding him to account on your allegations. That's your failure, not his, and what his problems and failures are are not your problem or responsibility.
– zibadawa timmy
4 hours ago
add a comment |
He literally had someone else take the exams for him
If you wanted to speak out, that was really the right time, not so many years later when damage is done and every accusation is virtually unprovable.
His doctoral thesis was weak and the defense round wasn't difficult.
There are many weak PhD theses around, and it's up to the universities and to the defense committees to decide which level of weakness is acceptable before rejecting a candidate (gosh, if we were to object to any "weak" degree...).
Do I tell his employer? Do I tell the university? Do I let it go?
You let it go because, as you said, you've nothing to prove your accusations (and the university would have no interest in undertaking an investigation after such a long time without any evidence to start with). And he is now in industry, and it's up to his employer to decide whether to promote or demote him according to his work performance and to decide whether the PhD title is just a vacuous document in his hands.
Different is the case where, for instance, you can prove that a student cheated by plagiarising other works. Here, there is evidence that can be used to revoke a degree, as it happened in some cases.
That's just it. He is schmoozing his way up the ladder. He just got promoted to a senior level position. We don't work together so it's not like that's the angle I'm taking. I'm related to this person. I thought for sure he would have been found out by now but he keeps moving around enough that no one figures it out.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
19
@JefferyThomas Time to stop being jelly and focusing on him and start focusing on you. Schmoozing one's way up the ladder has been standard business procedure since the beginning of corporate ladders. Socializing is a legitimate skill that has legitimate uses, including getting yourself better jobs. Unless you have something actionable and provable right now, you've missed the train on holding him to account on your allegations. That's your failure, not his, and what his problems and failures are are not your problem or responsibility.
– zibadawa timmy
4 hours ago
add a comment |
He literally had someone else take the exams for him
If you wanted to speak out, that was really the right time, not so many years later when damage is done and every accusation is virtually unprovable.
His doctoral thesis was weak and the defense round wasn't difficult.
There are many weak PhD theses around, and it's up to the universities and to the defense committees to decide which level of weakness is acceptable before rejecting a candidate (gosh, if we were to object to any "weak" degree...).
Do I tell his employer? Do I tell the university? Do I let it go?
You let it go because, as you said, you've nothing to prove your accusations (and the university would have no interest in undertaking an investigation after such a long time without any evidence to start with). And he is now in industry, and it's up to his employer to decide whether to promote or demote him according to his work performance and to decide whether the PhD title is just a vacuous document in his hands.
Different is the case where, for instance, you can prove that a student cheated by plagiarising other works. Here, there is evidence that can be used to revoke a degree, as it happened in some cases.
He literally had someone else take the exams for him
If you wanted to speak out, that was really the right time, not so many years later when damage is done and every accusation is virtually unprovable.
His doctoral thesis was weak and the defense round wasn't difficult.
There are many weak PhD theses around, and it's up to the universities and to the defense committees to decide which level of weakness is acceptable before rejecting a candidate (gosh, if we were to object to any "weak" degree...).
Do I tell his employer? Do I tell the university? Do I let it go?
You let it go because, as you said, you've nothing to prove your accusations (and the university would have no interest in undertaking an investigation after such a long time without any evidence to start with). And he is now in industry, and it's up to his employer to decide whether to promote or demote him according to his work performance and to decide whether the PhD title is just a vacuous document in his hands.
Different is the case where, for instance, you can prove that a student cheated by plagiarising other works. Here, there is evidence that can be used to revoke a degree, as it happened in some cases.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
Massimo OrtolanoMassimo Ortolano
40.1k12121151
40.1k12121151
That's just it. He is schmoozing his way up the ladder. He just got promoted to a senior level position. We don't work together so it's not like that's the angle I'm taking. I'm related to this person. I thought for sure he would have been found out by now but he keeps moving around enough that no one figures it out.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
19
@JefferyThomas Time to stop being jelly and focusing on him and start focusing on you. Schmoozing one's way up the ladder has been standard business procedure since the beginning of corporate ladders. Socializing is a legitimate skill that has legitimate uses, including getting yourself better jobs. Unless you have something actionable and provable right now, you've missed the train on holding him to account on your allegations. That's your failure, not his, and what his problems and failures are are not your problem or responsibility.
– zibadawa timmy
4 hours ago
add a comment |
That's just it. He is schmoozing his way up the ladder. He just got promoted to a senior level position. We don't work together so it's not like that's the angle I'm taking. I'm related to this person. I thought for sure he would have been found out by now but he keeps moving around enough that no one figures it out.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
19
@JefferyThomas Time to stop being jelly and focusing on him and start focusing on you. Schmoozing one's way up the ladder has been standard business procedure since the beginning of corporate ladders. Socializing is a legitimate skill that has legitimate uses, including getting yourself better jobs. Unless you have something actionable and provable right now, you've missed the train on holding him to account on your allegations. That's your failure, not his, and what his problems and failures are are not your problem or responsibility.
– zibadawa timmy
4 hours ago
That's just it. He is schmoozing his way up the ladder. He just got promoted to a senior level position. We don't work together so it's not like that's the angle I'm taking. I'm related to this person. I thought for sure he would have been found out by now but he keeps moving around enough that no one figures it out.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
That's just it. He is schmoozing his way up the ladder. He just got promoted to a senior level position. We don't work together so it's not like that's the angle I'm taking. I'm related to this person. I thought for sure he would have been found out by now but he keeps moving around enough that no one figures it out.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
19
19
@JefferyThomas Time to stop being jelly and focusing on him and start focusing on you. Schmoozing one's way up the ladder has been standard business procedure since the beginning of corporate ladders. Socializing is a legitimate skill that has legitimate uses, including getting yourself better jobs. Unless you have something actionable and provable right now, you've missed the train on holding him to account on your allegations. That's your failure, not his, and what his problems and failures are are not your problem or responsibility.
– zibadawa timmy
4 hours ago
@JefferyThomas Time to stop being jelly and focusing on him and start focusing on you. Schmoozing one's way up the ladder has been standard business procedure since the beginning of corporate ladders. Socializing is a legitimate skill that has legitimate uses, including getting yourself better jobs. Unless you have something actionable and provable right now, you've missed the train on holding him to account on your allegations. That's your failure, not his, and what his problems and failures are are not your problem or responsibility.
– zibadawa timmy
4 hours ago
add a comment |
You should stop beating the horse, because it is dead now. You had a chance but you lost it when you were in school and when something could have done about it. Right now, I believe you don't have any option other than letting it go. I can imagine your frustation in seeing him moving up the ladder (probably higher than you). If you didn't say anything when it actually could have changed anything, you should make peace with it now.
Even if you tell his employer now, what proof do you have to prove your allegation? University probably won't have any interest in pursuing this now. Honestly speaking, I sense jealousy in your post that he is doing good after all this. What you call "schmooze king", is actually a desirable skill in industry. More connections you can make, better are your chances to move up the ladder faster. So I would say, stop being obsessive with his success (with fraud or otherwise), and focus on your career.
add a comment |
You should stop beating the horse, because it is dead now. You had a chance but you lost it when you were in school and when something could have done about it. Right now, I believe you don't have any option other than letting it go. I can imagine your frustation in seeing him moving up the ladder (probably higher than you). If you didn't say anything when it actually could have changed anything, you should make peace with it now.
Even if you tell his employer now, what proof do you have to prove your allegation? University probably won't have any interest in pursuing this now. Honestly speaking, I sense jealousy in your post that he is doing good after all this. What you call "schmooze king", is actually a desirable skill in industry. More connections you can make, better are your chances to move up the ladder faster. So I would say, stop being obsessive with his success (with fraud or otherwise), and focus on your career.
add a comment |
You should stop beating the horse, because it is dead now. You had a chance but you lost it when you were in school and when something could have done about it. Right now, I believe you don't have any option other than letting it go. I can imagine your frustation in seeing him moving up the ladder (probably higher than you). If you didn't say anything when it actually could have changed anything, you should make peace with it now.
Even if you tell his employer now, what proof do you have to prove your allegation? University probably won't have any interest in pursuing this now. Honestly speaking, I sense jealousy in your post that he is doing good after all this. What you call "schmooze king", is actually a desirable skill in industry. More connections you can make, better are your chances to move up the ladder faster. So I would say, stop being obsessive with his success (with fraud or otherwise), and focus on your career.
You should stop beating the horse, because it is dead now. You had a chance but you lost it when you were in school and when something could have done about it. Right now, I believe you don't have any option other than letting it go. I can imagine your frustation in seeing him moving up the ladder (probably higher than you). If you didn't say anything when it actually could have changed anything, you should make peace with it now.
Even if you tell his employer now, what proof do you have to prove your allegation? University probably won't have any interest in pursuing this now. Honestly speaking, I sense jealousy in your post that he is doing good after all this. What you call "schmooze king", is actually a desirable skill in industry. More connections you can make, better are your chances to move up the ladder faster. So I would say, stop being obsessive with his success (with fraud or otherwise), and focus on your career.
answered 3 hours ago
nsinghsnsinghs
1,186313
1,186313
add a comment |
add a comment |
I agree with others generally regarding your specific question about telling the school(s). You missed your chance to really stop him when you should have, at least if you cared about him not getting undeserved degrees.
However I strongly disagree with some of these "let it go" answers, at least in terms of their lack of concern. An unqualified chemist who doesn't know the fundamentals (that their resume claims they know) can literally kill people. Stories abound of such idiots in chemistry-related industries. As for the answer extolling "hard work". A person who worked hard to be a fraud sounds like a more dangerous type of fraud to me.
A pharmaceutical rep shouldn't be in a position to do any damage, if everyone else does their job properly. But with those credentials he is especially dangerous as people might be more trusting of a phd's claims. And let's not forget this is a guy who doesn't care about silly things like "rules" or doing things the right way.
Your concern needs to be about the damage he can do now. And the people who would care about that are his employer. However this is beyond the scope of this forum and I really don't have an answer how to address that. It is much more specific and legal question to your situation. Generally, others are probably right that there's not much you can do at this point from afar.
Yes, incompetent chemists working in healthcare is scary -- OP should have stopped this back when they had the chance. But now OP has no way to prove these allegations, so they have no choice but to let it go.
– cag51
45 mins ago
@cag51 fair point. But what I meant was this is not really for a bunch of academics to advise about. I'll edit a bit to clarify this.
– A Simple Algorithm
40 mins ago
add a comment |
I agree with others generally regarding your specific question about telling the school(s). You missed your chance to really stop him when you should have, at least if you cared about him not getting undeserved degrees.
However I strongly disagree with some of these "let it go" answers, at least in terms of their lack of concern. An unqualified chemist who doesn't know the fundamentals (that their resume claims they know) can literally kill people. Stories abound of such idiots in chemistry-related industries. As for the answer extolling "hard work". A person who worked hard to be a fraud sounds like a more dangerous type of fraud to me.
A pharmaceutical rep shouldn't be in a position to do any damage, if everyone else does their job properly. But with those credentials he is especially dangerous as people might be more trusting of a phd's claims. And let's not forget this is a guy who doesn't care about silly things like "rules" or doing things the right way.
Your concern needs to be about the damage he can do now. And the people who would care about that are his employer. However this is beyond the scope of this forum and I really don't have an answer how to address that. It is much more specific and legal question to your situation. Generally, others are probably right that there's not much you can do at this point from afar.
Yes, incompetent chemists working in healthcare is scary -- OP should have stopped this back when they had the chance. But now OP has no way to prove these allegations, so they have no choice but to let it go.
– cag51
45 mins ago
@cag51 fair point. But what I meant was this is not really for a bunch of academics to advise about. I'll edit a bit to clarify this.
– A Simple Algorithm
40 mins ago
add a comment |
I agree with others generally regarding your specific question about telling the school(s). You missed your chance to really stop him when you should have, at least if you cared about him not getting undeserved degrees.
However I strongly disagree with some of these "let it go" answers, at least in terms of their lack of concern. An unqualified chemist who doesn't know the fundamentals (that their resume claims they know) can literally kill people. Stories abound of such idiots in chemistry-related industries. As for the answer extolling "hard work". A person who worked hard to be a fraud sounds like a more dangerous type of fraud to me.
A pharmaceutical rep shouldn't be in a position to do any damage, if everyone else does their job properly. But with those credentials he is especially dangerous as people might be more trusting of a phd's claims. And let's not forget this is a guy who doesn't care about silly things like "rules" or doing things the right way.
Your concern needs to be about the damage he can do now. And the people who would care about that are his employer. However this is beyond the scope of this forum and I really don't have an answer how to address that. It is much more specific and legal question to your situation. Generally, others are probably right that there's not much you can do at this point from afar.
I agree with others generally regarding your specific question about telling the school(s). You missed your chance to really stop him when you should have, at least if you cared about him not getting undeserved degrees.
However I strongly disagree with some of these "let it go" answers, at least in terms of their lack of concern. An unqualified chemist who doesn't know the fundamentals (that their resume claims they know) can literally kill people. Stories abound of such idiots in chemistry-related industries. As for the answer extolling "hard work". A person who worked hard to be a fraud sounds like a more dangerous type of fraud to me.
A pharmaceutical rep shouldn't be in a position to do any damage, if everyone else does their job properly. But with those credentials he is especially dangerous as people might be more trusting of a phd's claims. And let's not forget this is a guy who doesn't care about silly things like "rules" or doing things the right way.
Your concern needs to be about the damage he can do now. And the people who would care about that are his employer. However this is beyond the scope of this forum and I really don't have an answer how to address that. It is much more specific and legal question to your situation. Generally, others are probably right that there's not much you can do at this point from afar.
edited 39 mins ago
answered 57 mins ago
A Simple AlgorithmA Simple Algorithm
2,004210
2,004210
Yes, incompetent chemists working in healthcare is scary -- OP should have stopped this back when they had the chance. But now OP has no way to prove these allegations, so they have no choice but to let it go.
– cag51
45 mins ago
@cag51 fair point. But what I meant was this is not really for a bunch of academics to advise about. I'll edit a bit to clarify this.
– A Simple Algorithm
40 mins ago
add a comment |
Yes, incompetent chemists working in healthcare is scary -- OP should have stopped this back when they had the chance. But now OP has no way to prove these allegations, so they have no choice but to let it go.
– cag51
45 mins ago
@cag51 fair point. But what I meant was this is not really for a bunch of academics to advise about. I'll edit a bit to clarify this.
– A Simple Algorithm
40 mins ago
Yes, incompetent chemists working in healthcare is scary -- OP should have stopped this back when they had the chance. But now OP has no way to prove these allegations, so they have no choice but to let it go.
– cag51
45 mins ago
Yes, incompetent chemists working in healthcare is scary -- OP should have stopped this back when they had the chance. But now OP has no way to prove these allegations, so they have no choice but to let it go.
– cag51
45 mins ago
@cag51 fair point. But what I meant was this is not really for a bunch of academics to advise about. I'll edit a bit to clarify this.
– A Simple Algorithm
40 mins ago
@cag51 fair point. But what I meant was this is not really for a bunch of academics to advise about. I'll edit a bit to clarify this.
– A Simple Algorithm
40 mins ago
add a comment |
You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing. You're not nearly as good at working a room or a social/corporate/academic hierarchy as he is - he's shown himself to be very good at selling himself, at making sure that people feel comfortable with him. You're basically upset that he's a better salesperson than you are, and you're upset that he got what is, in your words, a job selling things. It sounds like he learned quite a bit while getting his PhD, and is putting those skills to good use.
New contributor
2
Re: "You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing": What exactly is the OP wrong about? I don't see anything in the question about not working hard.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
@ruakh The conceit of the question is that the person did not "earn" their PhD. Is that unclear?
– David Rice
1 hour ago
2
The conceit of the question is that the person cheated (e.g. "His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers"). The question openly acknowledges that the person did work (e.g. "physical work that very few of the other grad students would do"), but so what? (If I pay someone a full year of my salary to take a test for me, does that mean I've "earned" the grade I get?) In fact, it's rather a commonplace for professors to talk about all the work that cheaters put into cheating, and how it would be easier to just do the work they're supposed to.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
4
This answer makes an important point that other answers omit, but then overstates it and overlooks other parts of the story. Things like “…doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do” are indeed working hard and should legitimately count towards earning a PhD, and similarly to some extent for the socialising — OP is wrong to dismiss these, as you say. However, other parts of the story like “had someone else take the exams for him” and “his new girlfriend […] wrote a lot of is papers” really are misconduct — the OP is perfectly reasonable in taking issue with those.
– PLL
1 hour ago
1
It doesn't sound like he got a degree in marketing though. It sounds like he got a degree in biochemistry. Giving him a degree in something that he doesnt actually understand devalues the degrees of those that do understand.
– zero298
27 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing. You're not nearly as good at working a room or a social/corporate/academic hierarchy as he is - he's shown himself to be very good at selling himself, at making sure that people feel comfortable with him. You're basically upset that he's a better salesperson than you are, and you're upset that he got what is, in your words, a job selling things. It sounds like he learned quite a bit while getting his PhD, and is putting those skills to good use.
New contributor
2
Re: "You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing": What exactly is the OP wrong about? I don't see anything in the question about not working hard.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
@ruakh The conceit of the question is that the person did not "earn" their PhD. Is that unclear?
– David Rice
1 hour ago
2
The conceit of the question is that the person cheated (e.g. "His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers"). The question openly acknowledges that the person did work (e.g. "physical work that very few of the other grad students would do"), but so what? (If I pay someone a full year of my salary to take a test for me, does that mean I've "earned" the grade I get?) In fact, it's rather a commonplace for professors to talk about all the work that cheaters put into cheating, and how it would be easier to just do the work they're supposed to.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
4
This answer makes an important point that other answers omit, but then overstates it and overlooks other parts of the story. Things like “…doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do” are indeed working hard and should legitimately count towards earning a PhD, and similarly to some extent for the socialising — OP is wrong to dismiss these, as you say. However, other parts of the story like “had someone else take the exams for him” and “his new girlfriend […] wrote a lot of is papers” really are misconduct — the OP is perfectly reasonable in taking issue with those.
– PLL
1 hour ago
1
It doesn't sound like he got a degree in marketing though. It sounds like he got a degree in biochemistry. Giving him a degree in something that he doesnt actually understand devalues the degrees of those that do understand.
– zero298
27 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing. You're not nearly as good at working a room or a social/corporate/academic hierarchy as he is - he's shown himself to be very good at selling himself, at making sure that people feel comfortable with him. You're basically upset that he's a better salesperson than you are, and you're upset that he got what is, in your words, a job selling things. It sounds like he learned quite a bit while getting his PhD, and is putting those skills to good use.
New contributor
You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing. You're not nearly as good at working a room or a social/corporate/academic hierarchy as he is - he's shown himself to be very good at selling himself, at making sure that people feel comfortable with him. You're basically upset that he's a better salesperson than you are, and you're upset that he got what is, in your words, a job selling things. It sounds like he learned quite a bit while getting his PhD, and is putting those skills to good use.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 1 hour ago
David RiceDavid Rice
1052
1052
New contributor
New contributor
2
Re: "You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing": What exactly is the OP wrong about? I don't see anything in the question about not working hard.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
@ruakh The conceit of the question is that the person did not "earn" their PhD. Is that unclear?
– David Rice
1 hour ago
2
The conceit of the question is that the person cheated (e.g. "His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers"). The question openly acknowledges that the person did work (e.g. "physical work that very few of the other grad students would do"), but so what? (If I pay someone a full year of my salary to take a test for me, does that mean I've "earned" the grade I get?) In fact, it's rather a commonplace for professors to talk about all the work that cheaters put into cheating, and how it would be easier to just do the work they're supposed to.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
4
This answer makes an important point that other answers omit, but then overstates it and overlooks other parts of the story. Things like “…doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do” are indeed working hard and should legitimately count towards earning a PhD, and similarly to some extent for the socialising — OP is wrong to dismiss these, as you say. However, other parts of the story like “had someone else take the exams for him” and “his new girlfriend […] wrote a lot of is papers” really are misconduct — the OP is perfectly reasonable in taking issue with those.
– PLL
1 hour ago
1
It doesn't sound like he got a degree in marketing though. It sounds like he got a degree in biochemistry. Giving him a degree in something that he doesnt actually understand devalues the degrees of those that do understand.
– zero298
27 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
2
Re: "You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing": What exactly is the OP wrong about? I don't see anything in the question about not working hard.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
@ruakh The conceit of the question is that the person did not "earn" their PhD. Is that unclear?
– David Rice
1 hour ago
2
The conceit of the question is that the person cheated (e.g. "His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers"). The question openly acknowledges that the person did work (e.g. "physical work that very few of the other grad students would do"), but so what? (If I pay someone a full year of my salary to take a test for me, does that mean I've "earned" the grade I get?) In fact, it's rather a commonplace for professors to talk about all the work that cheaters put into cheating, and how it would be easier to just do the work they're supposed to.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
4
This answer makes an important point that other answers omit, but then overstates it and overlooks other parts of the story. Things like “…doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do” are indeed working hard and should legitimately count towards earning a PhD, and similarly to some extent for the socialising — OP is wrong to dismiss these, as you say. However, other parts of the story like “had someone else take the exams for him” and “his new girlfriend […] wrote a lot of is papers” really are misconduct — the OP is perfectly reasonable in taking issue with those.
– PLL
1 hour ago
1
It doesn't sound like he got a degree in marketing though. It sounds like he got a degree in biochemistry. Giving him a degree in something that he doesnt actually understand devalues the degrees of those that do understand.
– zero298
27 mins ago
2
2
Re: "You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing": What exactly is the OP wrong about? I don't see anything in the question about not working hard.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
Re: "You're wrong - he worked hard, just in a different way than you're used to viewing": What exactly is the OP wrong about? I don't see anything in the question about not working hard.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
@ruakh The conceit of the question is that the person did not "earn" their PhD. Is that unclear?
– David Rice
1 hour ago
@ruakh The conceit of the question is that the person did not "earn" their PhD. Is that unclear?
– David Rice
1 hour ago
2
2
The conceit of the question is that the person cheated (e.g. "His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers"). The question openly acknowledges that the person did work (e.g. "physical work that very few of the other grad students would do"), but so what? (If I pay someone a full year of my salary to take a test for me, does that mean I've "earned" the grade I get?) In fact, it's rather a commonplace for professors to talk about all the work that cheaters put into cheating, and how it would be easier to just do the work they're supposed to.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
The conceit of the question is that the person cheated (e.g. "His new girlfriend at grad school wrote a lot of his papers"). The question openly acknowledges that the person did work (e.g. "physical work that very few of the other grad students would do"), but so what? (If I pay someone a full year of my salary to take a test for me, does that mean I've "earned" the grade I get?) In fact, it's rather a commonplace for professors to talk about all the work that cheaters put into cheating, and how it would be easier to just do the work they're supposed to.
– ruakh
1 hour ago
4
4
This answer makes an important point that other answers omit, but then overstates it and overlooks other parts of the story. Things like “…doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do” are indeed working hard and should legitimately count towards earning a PhD, and similarly to some extent for the socialising — OP is wrong to dismiss these, as you say. However, other parts of the story like “had someone else take the exams for him” and “his new girlfriend […] wrote a lot of is papers” really are misconduct — the OP is perfectly reasonable in taking issue with those.
– PLL
1 hour ago
This answer makes an important point that other answers omit, but then overstates it and overlooks other parts of the story. Things like “…doing physical work that very few of the other grad students would do” are indeed working hard and should legitimately count towards earning a PhD, and similarly to some extent for the socialising — OP is wrong to dismiss these, as you say. However, other parts of the story like “had someone else take the exams for him” and “his new girlfriend […] wrote a lot of is papers” really are misconduct — the OP is perfectly reasonable in taking issue with those.
– PLL
1 hour ago
1
1
It doesn't sound like he got a degree in marketing though. It sounds like he got a degree in biochemistry. Giving him a degree in something that he doesnt actually understand devalues the degrees of those that do understand.
– zero298
27 mins ago
It doesn't sound like he got a degree in marketing though. It sounds like he got a degree in biochemistry. Giving him a degree in something that he doesnt actually understand devalues the degrees of those that do understand.
– zero298
27 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Jeffery Thomas is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Jeffery Thomas is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Jeffery Thomas is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Jeffery Thomas is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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25
A pharmaceutical rep being a giant scumbag? What a surprise
– Azor Ahai
4 hours ago
8
Get over it! Nothing to do with you, too many scumbags in life to chase them all. Do good work and people will notice. Everyone notices schmoozers in the end and they don't get to do fun work.
– FChm
4 hours ago
@FChm, I know you're right. It just gets to me. I hate it when cheaters win.
– Jeffery Thomas
4 hours ago
4
It depends what you define as winning, set your own life goals and metrics for happiness and let everyone else do their own thing. Personally, working as a pharmaceutical rep sounds like hell to me. But someone who puts financial gain at the top of their life agenda may like it.
– FChm
4 hours ago
2
Given you umbrage at his getting a degree, would you insist that the person be penniless and homeless? Seems to me they took a job that fits their skill set and is executing well, in spite of having a PhD.
– Jon Custer
4 hours ago