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What can we say about Classical Nahuatl ?



Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?Are there any papers about the calling contour (minor third, vocative chant) in Italian?What about the sound change initial n -> initial l?What did the Greeks and Romans believe about language relationships?Is Classical Hebrew an Indo-European language?Irregular penultimate stress in English words from classical sourcesRomance languages - “to mean” as “to want to say”Term for the set of rules about where sounds can occurWhat did Sapir intend to say when he wrote that 'whither' repeats all of 'where'?Do we have to revise what we know about Thracian?Question about the proto-Germanic root hampijaną










1















Nahuatl has two sibilant fricatives, now pronounced something like [s] and [ʃ]. The standard orthography was developed by Spanish colonizers, who wrote /ʃ/ as x, and /s/ as c before a front vowel, z elsewhere. (There's also [t͡ʃ], written ch.)



But since all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].



Do we know what this sound was? There unfortunately weren't trained linguists around transcribing Classical Nahuatl, but the Spanish transcription might be enough to make a good guess.










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago
















1















Nahuatl has two sibilant fricatives, now pronounced something like [s] and [ʃ]. The standard orthography was developed by Spanish colonizers, who wrote /ʃ/ as x, and /s/ as c before a front vowel, z elsewhere. (There's also [t͡ʃ], written ch.)



But since all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].



Do we know what this sound was? There unfortunately weren't trained linguists around transcribing Classical Nahuatl, but the Spanish transcription might be enough to make a good guess.










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago














1












1








1








Nahuatl has two sibilant fricatives, now pronounced something like [s] and [ʃ]. The standard orthography was developed by Spanish colonizers, who wrote /ʃ/ as x, and /s/ as c before a front vowel, z elsewhere. (There's also [t͡ʃ], written ch.)



But since all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].



Do we know what this sound was? There unfortunately weren't trained linguists around transcribing Classical Nahuatl, but the Spanish transcription might be enough to make a good guess.










share|improve this question
















Nahuatl has two sibilant fricatives, now pronounced something like [s] and [ʃ]. The standard orthography was developed by Spanish colonizers, who wrote /ʃ/ as x, and /s/ as c before a front vowel, z elsewhere. (There's also [t͡ʃ], written ch.)



But since all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].



Do we know what this sound was? There unfortunately weren't trained linguists around transcribing Classical Nahuatl, but the Spanish transcription might be enough to make a good guess.







phonology historical-linguistics romance-languages






share|improve this question















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edited 34 mins ago









Mark Beadles

5,65411943




5,65411943










asked 8 hours ago









DraconisDraconis

13.2k12055




13.2k12055







  • 3





    Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago













  • 3





    Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago








3




3





Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

– Nardog
7 hours ago






Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

– Nardog
7 hours ago











2 Answers
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The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).






share|improve this answer
































    0















    all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




    This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.






    share|improve this answer























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      2 Answers
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      2 Answers
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      active

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      2














      The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



      There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).






      share|improve this answer





























        2














        The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



        There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).






        share|improve this answer



























          2












          2








          2







          The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



          There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).






          share|improve this answer















          The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



          There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 5 hours ago

























          answered 5 hours ago









          MiztliMiztli

          493313




          493313





















              0















              all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




              This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.






              share|improve this answer



























                0















                all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




                This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.






                share|improve this answer

























                  0












                  0








                  0








                  all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




                  This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.






                  share|improve this answer














                  all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




                  This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 5 hours ago









                  sumelicsumelic

                  10.3k12156




                  10.3k12156



























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